Date: 9/22/2003
Time: 6:31:09 AM
Being a faithful believer and a person of integrity will in no wise be the cause of an easy life, whether you have one or not. In Job's case it was just the opposite. As he drew both God's and Satan's attention upon himself by his righteousness it resulted in spiritual conflicts in heaven which where beyond his knowledge and comprehension, but which resulted in very real and unpleasant consequences for Job. And the same thing still happens all the time in today's world. LakeO Pilgrim
Date: 9/22/2003
Time: 10:08:33 AM
I think it is significant that God is the one who pointed Job out to Satan as a person who was blameless and upright. Then God is the one who initiates the "wager" with Satan in order to see how faithful and true Job really is. While I have problems with the idea that God puts trials and tribulations on people, the upside of the whole Job ordeal is that God had confidence in Job. It is as if God has chosen Job to be on his team and believes that Job is the one who can bring home the victory. Job was God's No. 1 draft pick and God's franchise player. I wish that I thought God had that kind of confidence in me. -- Creature Wayne
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 5:25:00 PM
Well, trials and tribulations come no matter how they get there. I have never believed God tests us like this, but I have always believed that the story of Job puts us on notice that nobody is above sorrow and loss and pain. "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Rabbi Kushner (?) is a book I want to re-read sometime.
Also, as a person who has no use for this "Satan" thing, I am pleased to find support for my theory that satan (small s) was actually part of God's heavenly counsel, a Dr. Phil type who would sort out who was being genuine and who was being ingenuous in their faith. An accuser of those who said one thing and did another. A District Attorney who found evidence of lies, deceit and fraud. It wasn't until later that "Satan" became a personification of evil in theology. But I'm not here to make argument with anyone. This is just my opinion. I've been known to be wrong.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 5:40:36 PM
I first read Job in college. Although I had been in church for many years, I had not really applied myself. When I did read it I was shocked! I took Discipleship Bible Study last year. I was already the wild card in the group. Let's just say the Bible afflicts me more than it comforts me. When we got to Job the rest of the crowd were making comments like, "Well God can do what he want" and "God is God what are you going to do about it?" and other such things.
I must have been conspicously silent because they all looked at me and the minister leading the group (I was only a student) said, "Well what about you, Mike?" Well I could just stand it no more! I said (in brief here) I hate this book. It only makes me angry to read it. God sets Job up for all kinds of pain and Job has no clue as to what was going on in the heavens or the purpose of the trials. I don't think Job's wife or his dead kids get any of the attention they deserve. The three friends should all have socks stuffed in their mouthes. In my own humble opinion God's answers to Job are a blow off. I mean sure God is right in what he says but a "Gee Job, I can't tell you what it is all about now but I will one day. Thanks for hanging in there" would have been an answer I could live with better.
We had a good conversation after that! We questioned everything from then on. Gee whiz. What a book. I am going to have to struggle with this one! Is there and easy book of the Bible to preach?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 5:42:52 PM
Dear KyHoosierCat,
I had never heard of the satan as God's District Attourney! What a great idea! Consider it plagerized. I love this forum!
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 7:31:02 AM
My first post ever. I'm a huge fan of OT, and book of Job. this book appears to have been written as a means to get across a point. I even read today in the Upper Room Disciplines a meditation by Knut Bjarne Jorgensen (UM pastor in Denmark), that the book begins "Once upon a time" in the Danish translation. Interesting. Anyway, my point is that Job's wife takes the attitude that Job should "divorce" God for the misery he creates for Job (1:9). But Job hangs in there in the relationship (1:10). It is no coincidence how well it works with the gospel message on divorce for this Sunday. Posting this on gospel page as well as Job page. Jane, Iowa
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:39:25 AM
Job was a man of wealth and status who came upon horrible reversals of fortune without complaint. No matter the calamity, Job remains the picture of profound faith in God.
Blameless and upright. Fears God and turns from evil. There is none like him on earth. So God values the servant called Job, and so begins the marvelous, baffling, and mysterious parable of innocent suffering and divine sovereignty. The narrative would have no meaning or tension unless God deemed Job worthy, a truth his pious friends totally miss. Job refuses to be made a non-person by the circumstances that befall him; he persists in his integrity
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 10:55:35 AM
Dear Friends, How do ya'll (am a southerner) plan to handle the injustice to the 10 dead kids, all those servants and a wife that lost out on this bet between God and Satan? Frankly I feel for Mrs. Job. She is not the antagonist here. She is just a poor lost soul having to watch her husband suffer and perhaps die after everything esle. She doesn't know he is kept from dying.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 12:02:06 PM
I always thought it was a cryin' shame the 3 "friends" weren't the ones who got "whacked". Surely there was some kind of hell they had to sit through after this was all over. If I were in Job's spot, I would have reached for the nearest rock.....
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 4:12:49 PM
To the one who wrote: I always thought it was a cryin' shame the 3 "friends" weren't the ones who got "whacked". Surely there was some kind of hell they had to sit through after this was all over. If I were in Job's spot, I would have reached for the nearest rock.....
Amen, brother or sister. Your analysis adds to my own about the total and complete injustice of it all. In the end the worst that happens is they are told they are wrong and they have to ask Job to pray for them! Gheez.
Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 5:34:34 PM
Don't we all have "friends" who drone on and on giving advice we don't want? I have two whom I have dubbed Urim ("Unsolicited Ramblings Irritate Me") and Thummin ("This HUMan Mumbles Inane Nonsense") because they seem to think I need them to make any decision. Which do I listen to? Neither one. Neither one has ever walked in my shoes. Too bad Job couldn't use the same tactic.
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 9:34:36 PM
Looks like some great thinking fodder for this week. It bears considering that the three friends did not start off by giving advice; they actually suffered silently with him for seven days and nights. How many of us after “being there” in silence for that long would resist the temptation to try to “explain”? The three were probably sincere—sincerely wrong in their musings, but sincere!
Also, the concept injustice in God’s taking of the lives assumes that we all have a guarantee of a certain lifetime. No one knows when he will be called, nor for what reason. Death is natural. We just see it as an injustice if it occurs before the national average of 78 years (for men). Actually, in order to meet that average, about half the people have to die young. I survived the San Francisco earthquake of 1989. Many others did not. Why? That’s a question none of us can answer. The fact that Job personalizes the death doesn’t make it any different than death from other causes.
My biggest problem with the whole story is that it seems to belie the statement in the NT that God does not tempt us or do evil. How would some of my brothers and sisters out there help me deal with a God who would make a deal with the devil?
Peace & blessings
Rich in Bama
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 7:00:47 AM
Did God made a deal with the devil? That begs the question: How do you define devil/satan? The satan as a malevolent creature was not a part of the Hebrew thinking at this time. They saw him as a servant of God, one who did God's bidding, God's ally. He had no power to do anything unless it was God's plan. The idea that he became an opponent of God and of humanity didn't come until later in their theology, when they moved toward dualism's belief that there must be a polar opposite to just about everything. Thus God's polar opposite became Satan, a supernatural power of evil and trouble. That is the Satan so often taught today. But when Job was written, there was no such concept.
So my question is not about God making a deal with the devil, but why did GOD himself concoct this plan to bring harm to one of his own? It riles me and it intrigues me. Then I decide to reject it altogether and to just say that "stuff happens" and not lay the BLAME for it at God's feet, the devil's feet, or anyone else's feet. Sometimes I cause my own pain. Sometimes another person causes my pain. Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere and blind-sides me. I can choose how I respond to it. I can sit tight and ride the storm or I can give up. I can take a "quick fix" or choose not to. Whichever I decide will not change God, but it will change me.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:41:02 AM
So far, everyone agrees that Job is a tough book to preach. What happens to Job just isn't fair. And how could God just allow the death of Job's children as part of the bargain. Ugh.
This book is a response to someone who has suffered. Note it's close proximity to Psalms. The theology in the Psalms is mostly "Praise God, we have been saved!" Or "Trust God, and everything will turn out ok." JOb is the opposite.
It seems to me that Job was written by someone who was trying to make sense of evil in the world. Job finds comfort that even in suffering, he is not alone. Maybe that's the best we can hope for. The United Church creed (CAnada) begins with "We are not alone, thanks be to God."
From A minister who is going on disabilty after a car accident -- it just isn't fair, God.
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:58:21 AM
"Have you considered my servant, Creature Wayne?" Have you considered my servant, "KY HoosierCat?" Have you considered my servant, Mike?" "Have you considered my servant, Jane?"
From God's servant, Sally in GA
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 11:40:37 AM
As the minister going on disability has said, I tend to think the book of Job is indeed written by someone trying to understand human suffering (theirs or others'), and creating a story/fable/parable to explain it. But how does one mention *that* in a sermon to a congregation where many are biblical literalists??
Re the kids: perhaps one possibility is that they--w/ their drunken parties--started the house on fire and died at their own hands! Tragic for Job and his wife, for sure, but maybe just the consequences of poor judgment by the young people.
I'm going to be brave and try a sermon series on Job over the next 4 weeks. It's a rare opportunity, w/ these OT options, to get into this book. I've enjoyed exploring Job before. I just hope I can do it justice. We have a Service of the Word for Healing coming up on Oct. 12, and I think that will tie into Job's discouragement and feeling like God is hidden from him (in ch. 23), just as many who are suffering feel that way. The reassurance is found in the Hebrews text that day. And I think that by the time we reach ch. 42 on Reformation Sun., I can tie Job in to justification by grace thru faith as well. I did a paper in seminary about the connections between Job and the theology of Luther--centering on the phrase, "deserving does not run the world," from one of the authors I cited.
I'd love to keep talking w/ all of you along these lines throughout the month, if anyone else pursues the Jobian texts that long!
Heidi in MN
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 1:48:52 PM
Hello, friends! Jane, your comment about 'once upon a time" reminded me of a simialr discussion of Job at Wesley Seminary (DC) this summer. We were in an OT class taught by Rebecca Wright, professor of OT and Biblical Hebrew. She said teh wording in the Hebrew for the opening paragraphs fo the Job story are the literary equivalent of the Englis 'set-up' for a story; something like our "Once upon a time, long ago and far away, lived a man.... This literary style indicates a story in Hebrw, probably one with a strong messge or moral, sort of like a parable or an Aesop's fable. We know that it is not literally true, but the purpose and message are clear and true nonetheless. Jesus used parables alot, it was an accepted teaching mode in the Jewish tradition. I love this book..esp. the fire-breathing dragon part!
RevJan in CNY
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 2:50:12 PM
RevJan in CNY, can YOU come and tell the members of my Church that the story of Job is ficticious? Please? They simply will not believe me. A 90 year old woman in my Bible Study class about had palpatations when I said that, assuming everyone in the world already knew that little tidbit. I told her to hang onto her hat because we'd be getting to Daniel before long.
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 4:39:55 PM
Dear Sally in GA,
I have never met you but I can say I love you in Christ. But if you are going to pray such prayers as:
"Have you considered my servant, Creature Wayne?" Have you considered my servant, "KY HoosierCat?" Have you considered my servant, Mike?" "Have you considered my servant, Jane?"
Please leave my name out of it. I do not want any unwarranted attention of this sort in the heavenly realms! :)
Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 4:43:40 PM
To Heidi in MN,
I would love to correspond with you about preaching Job over the next month since that is what I am planning to do. I have a rough draft for this Sunday and rough outlines for the other Sundays. Please feel free to contact me at bagpiper@rfci.net.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 9:07:43 PM
If God is omnipotent, why does he not have any power over Satan?
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 5:21:45 AM
To the one who wrote: "If God is omnipotent, why does he not have any power over Satan?"
That's is what we are trying to get at! It seems the questions we ask may be the wrong ones. In Job the better question may be why does God set Job up against one of His own heavenly court who seems to do nothing else but roam the earth looking for people to try?
Mike in Sunshine
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 7:17:51 AM
Mike in Sunshine, I agree with you fully. We must remember when we read Job how the theology back then was very different from what is taught now - with the satan being our case in point. The satan (the accuser) never had his own power. God was the only one with power, which he never relinquished. The satan was not given permission to do one thing more than God gave him reins to do. So, the problematic theme is why did God test Job, not why did the satan test Job?
Job was upstanding and righteous, all right, but we are led to believe that he had no significant life-struggles to deal with. Everything was apparently just going along like clockwork. The thinking here is that it's easy to not sin when life is good. But, put a few major hurdles in the way (illness, pain, death, loss, desperation, etc.) and that righteousness will give in to cursing, blaming and rejecting God. Or at least someone. So, the accuser, who had been thinking along this line, pointed out to God that Job might be a "fair weather friend". God said, Let's see......and the story of Job unfolds. The satan is only a vehicle. God is out to prove that there are those who will remain strong through adversity. But what a way to make that point!!!
Any one of us could, at times, be Job. We often get self-satisfied with our lives and what we have. We remain loyal to God and do nothing to break his Laws, but our focus is not on our NEED for God even in the prosperous times. We have proved we can rely on ourselves for our needs. It's when our lives turn upside down that we recognize that we need God above all else. There is a hymn "Jesus Calls Us O'er the Tumult" that says "Christian, love me more than these". That, in a Judaic setting, is ONE of the great themes of Job. It is everyman's and everywoman's story of being attuned to God "in our joys and in our sorrows, days of toil and hours of ease".
For someone who's not preaching on Job, I sure do take lots of this forum's space. Sorry.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 7:39:53 AM
KyHoosierCat--
Don't apologize for taking up space on the forum! Your insights are very helpful to me.
Heidi in MN
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 10:07:54 AM
To the Urim and Thummin Contributor, I want to thank you for my big chuckle of the week! I loved it. I'd almost forgotten about U and T in the times of indecision! Ha!
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:45:34 PM
I concur that the U and T contributor gave me a big chuckle for the day! Thanks for that!
Susan In Wa.
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:45:53 PM
Why do good people suffer is a very troubling question. I think a more transformative question might be, What is God calling me to become through suffering? Just a thought as I struggle with this text.
Angelic Residue, OR
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:46:00 PM
Why do good people suffer is a very troubling question. I think a more transformative question might be, What is God calling me to become through suffering? Just a thought as I struggle with this text.
Angelic Residue, OR
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 1:04:28 PM
According to J. Gerald Janzen, in the Interpretation series of Commentaries, he describes the two possible meanings of Job's name, depending on which tense it is written in. "ayya-'abum "Where is the Divine Father?" places Job within the ambience of Israelite ancestral, personal religion with it's reference to God as a divine parent. In such a setting, Job is a standing invocation of God's presence in his life. . . but Robert Gordis explains the name as a passive participial noun meaning "the hated persecuted one." Placing both together in the story gives us a word play. . . The very name Job, which was once a confident invocation of God as divine father, now becomes an accusation against God as an enemy and persecutor."
I'll tell you, I am struggling with all of this week's passage and how to speak to Peacmaking Sunday (in PCUSA)and World Communion Sunday. Being one who believes my role is to proclaim the "good news" I am having a difficult time finding any good news to proclaim in any of these passages, other than the fact that my name isn't Job!
Any help out there?
Susan in Wa.
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 1:32:30 PM
I read a book last year entitled, "When Suffering Persists". It was by an Episcopal professor of spirituality but I don't have the book or name in front of me.
He said we should not begin with "God is all powerful" and "God is all good" as we normally do. Start, instead, with "God first and foremost wants communion with us." God uses circumstances and experiences to shape us for a closer relationship.
As a father of a young child, I don't save him from everything nor keep him from making his mistakes. I do pray and desire that he will have a wonderful loving relationship with God and with me when he grows up. I realize that every experience, good or bad, becomes an opportunity to teach him that life is not about accumulating things but about building healthy and positive relationships (with God and others) that will sustain him throughout life.
This is a prophetic text for a "me" culture. It's not about me. I'm part of something (someone) bigger! The more I realize that, the more spiritually healthy I feel.
Prophet in PA
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 7:31:52 AM
As Jesus put it: "Your Father in heaven causes His sun to shine on the evil AND the good, and sends RAIN on the righteous AND the unrighteous ALIKE." WHEN will we ever learn that the physical circumstances of our lives, although controlled by God, are NOT in any way remotely related to our spiritual merit or depravity. The popular theology of today is no different than the theology of Jobs friends. Witness the whole prayer of Jabez phenomenon.
Lake-O Pilgrim
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 7:37:00 AM
OOPS!! *Where* did I get the idea that the kids' house was destroyed by fire? It was actually wind, according to the text. Sorry about that! Blows the theory of any drunken mischief causing the problem!
Secondly, to Prophet in PA, a big thank you for your comment about God desiring to be in communion w/ us. Very helpful to me!
And to Susan in Wa., have you tried the Hebrews text to find the Good News for the day? (all thru Oct. actually) Finally, the Good News for us as Christians is that God himself in Jesus came to share in our suffering--Job's, yours, mine, that of the whole world--so we are never alone or abandoned, no matter how it sometimes feels. That's the tack I'm taking, at any rate.
Peace, all! (Or as my confirmation kids say in the current slang, "Peace out!"--whatever *that* means!)
Heidi in MN
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 8:58:53 AM
Re Job: How about ~ how satan makes bad things look like God's actions? How about the integrity theme tied throughout the reading from Job (integrity mentioned at least 2 times) to Psalm 26 - (mentioned twice) to Hebrews - Jesus being the reflection of God's glory, to Mark - receiving the Kingdom of God like a little child (ie with integrity)... this is my theme this week. I also think Job is a tremendous challenge to us -- Why do Bad Things Happen To GOD-People? R in Ontario-Can
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 11:11:42 AM
To: DPSers From: Oklahoma Irishman Re: Job
Could it be that Job is the Bible's answer to the question, "Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People"? Disaster does not come because my genes are bad or my children are worse. Do you remember the question to Jesus? "Who sinned, this man or his folks?" God risked Job like God risked Jesus. Life is a risk, a colossal gamble. And God is gambling on our faithfulness. When Job is sitting in the ashes and scraping his skin with a piece of smashed pot, I think, "Been there. Done that." No sin. Just blood. There is a story like this in the New Testament, too.
Ephesians 3: 14 ~ 21,
Oklahoma Irishman
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 11:13:32 AM
To: DPSers From: Oklahoma Irishman Re: Job
Could it be that Job is the Bible's answer to the question, "Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People"? Disaster does not come because my genes are bad or my children are worse. Do you remember the question to Jesus? "Who sinned, this man or his folks?" God risked Job like God risked Jesus. Life is a risk, a colossal gamble. And God is gambling on our faithfulness. When Job is sitting in the ashes and scraping his skin with a piece of smashed pot, I think, "Been there. Done that." No sin. Just blood. There is a story like this in the New Testament, too.
Ephesians 3: 14 ~ 21,
Oklahoma Irishman
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 1:36:50 PM
I plan to tie this in with the theme of where there is tragedy there can be a testimony that glorifies the name of the LORD. Through tragedy can come a powerful testimony that God loves us and is with us throughout. PastorBill in NC
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 1:43:28 PM
Hi,
I appreciate the comments on Job—your ideas have helped me with the plans for this week’s sermon. We will share in World Communion Sunday (UMC) this week, so I am trying to build toward that as part of the message. I hope my thoughts can be of some help to someone. As of now, the outline I am planning is as follows:
1) How do we respond to our pain? The great hurt in my life occurred many years ago when my infant son died of SIDS. It wasn’t fair! I don’t know why bad things happen and don’t pretend to know. Job suffered and it wasn’t fair. One thing to remember from the story of Job is the way he responded to the suffering. Can we allow our pain to bring us closer to God?
2) How do we respond to the pain of others? Someone wrote in this forum, “Job finds comfort that even in suffering, he is not alone. Maybe that's the best we can hope for. The United Church creed (CAnada) begins with ‘We are not alone, thanks be to God.’” How can we help those who suffer?
3) How do we respond to the suffering of Christ? Christ suffered on the cross and it just wasn’t fair—He had done no wrong. I am a sinner and I appreciate Jesus suffering for me. When we take communion let us share in his suffering, then let us remember that we also share in his resurrection.
Leon in NC<><
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 3:30:30 PM
Well, you can tell I was in a hurry when I typed in my earlier entry. The typos outnumber the words! Sorry, friends. Jane, (if the response was you, if not...whomever!) I'd love to help, but my two churches keep me rather occupied. :) Anyway, it may be more important to dwell on the message behind the parable than on whether or not it is fictitious. God bless....RevJan in CNY
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 5:08:32 PM
Susan in WA ...
I understand your struggle to find the "good news" ... and am reminded of the words of my field-ed mentor back in seminary. He said, "We're called to preach the Good News ... and sometimes the Good News comes in the form of a challenge."
Does it ever!
Squeeze
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 8:36:49 AM
I like to do cross stitch. Many people have a very neat back to their cross stitch. I do not. There are stings hanging everywhere! Perhaps thats what life with God is all about-even when we suffer. We only see from the string side-the loose ends-the unfinished parts to life. Our view is limited-yet God can see the whole picture. DOn't we have to trust the ONe who sees the whole of our lives? Thinking about showing one of my pieces as I preach-just a thought
Jan from Pa
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 9:17:09 AM
Jan from PA - even the perfect stitches didn't get into your picture without the canvas being jabbed by a big ol' needle - maybe several times to get them precisely where they needed to be. Pictures don't get stitched without jabs and some pain, both to the subject (if canvas could feel pain) and the maker (stuck fingers?) But in the end, the goal is accomplished. Things are much much better than they were before the needle came out of the box.
Job sure got jabbed, but in the end, he was made better than ever.
Anonymous
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 11:06:20 AM
Thanks to all for your very rich contributions!
As we make our way through Job the next four weeks it would be good for us to consider Job as a story written to challenge the "wisdom" of the psalms which tell us that the good are rewarded and the wicked are punished. Which we all know is not true, and which the writer of Job knew wasn't true. Life isn't as simple as that. I read Job as story, as myth, not as history. I better yet like it as a parable as one of you called it.
I like what Steve offered in the 1997 forum: "I will take this text as a starting point for the real answer Christianity offers: that God does not explain suffering, but enters into it with us, triumphs over it at Easter, and invites us to participate in victory through faith." Thank you Steve and blessings to all as we make our way though Job!
Peace to all, Mark in WI
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 11:08:07 AM
Oops - parable - is supposed to be at the end of that line in the middle paragraph.... Mark in WI
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 11:15:45 AM
Dear friends,
By nature I have become a chronic planner. If I don't put at least a rough draft together by Friday I am in panic. Anyway, I will be preaching from the book of Job all this month. My outline for the month is:
1. Suffering happens. This sermon does not have a "Happily ever after" feel to it. But it is reflective of life.
2. Job's Friends.
3. What I admire about Job
4. God and the book of Job.
The first sermon is on the net and may be viewed at: http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20031005.htm
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 11:51:25 AM
Dear friends:
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 12:26:31 PM
Dear Friends:
I too will be preaching from Job throughout this month. I think it is important to stick with the Lectionary text before us - and not wander into other parts of the story just yet (it's tricky enough as it is!) The 2nd chapter of Job only hints at the destruction of Job's property, the death of his children, etc. In some ways this chapter parallels chapter 1 (the heavenly council, the conversation with the satan, etc.) but here the suffering of Job becomes even more imminent - it is Job's own body that is covered with sores, and he is left (for this week) pathetically sitting in ashes and scraping himself. The satan's challenge seems to be that though a person can be psychologically wounded and his faith tried by the pain of others around him, it is personal, intense physical pain and suffering that will REALLY cause one to lose faith.
Note also that the challenges of the satan are not "wagers", rather statements of predicted fact. It is as if the satan is saying "I know this will happen" thereby questioning God's perception of Job and ultimately God's control of the situation. It seems clear to me from the text that God is in control - but the scene, as the rest of the book of Job, raises more questions than it answers. If God is indeed in control, why allow the satan to have his way short of killing him? I'm also pondering how to tie this in with World Communion - a possible connection might be to remind folks of the feelings and questions following 9/11 - when questions of undeserved suffering were on everyone's mind and the world suddenly seemed a much smaller place. I'm not going to get into the friend's speeches until they come up in next week's text - "let today's troubles be sufficient for the day!"
Also, in re. the "fiction vs. history" debate, it seems to me the truth of the book of Job is so much deeper and richer than "historical truth". The question "did this actually happen?" seems to me the most shallow and superfluous question to ask of the text, when there is so much depth and richness to the truth of the story. I am willing to be agnostic in regards to historicity - which is to say yes, it may very well have happened at a particular place and time. But that is hardly the point of the story!!
Shalom,
Bo in KY
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 4:14:50 PM
There were several Job stories floating around, some of which predated Abraham - in the second milleneum BC. There was a Babylonian Job, there was a Sumerian Job, and there is the Job of the Old Testament.
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 6:04:17 AM
Heartfelt thanks for the work offered this week on this text. Without each one's insight-full contribution, --to which I could add nothing-- I would have been a sorry and desperate preacher. For my brain this week, it seemed the lessons had placed our preaching options between a rock and a hard place. Aslanclan
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 9:40:04 AM
I am quite thankful for the dialogue on this text...
I am surprised, though, that no one has corrected the title of Rabbi Kushner's book. It's actual title was "WHEN [not WHY] Bad Things Happen to Good People." And that, it seems to me in light of Job's later diatribe and God's clear response, is an important distinction. Neither Rabbi Kushner, nor any of Job's friends, nor we preachers, is able to explain "why"....
Brian in KC
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 6:42:45 AM
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