Date: 9/22/2003
Time: 1:16:43 PM
I am getting an early start on this since we are observing United Methodist Women's Sunday on the 28th and I am not preaching. So this is my first rambling . . .
Jesus’ commentary is shocking: if a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery. And if the woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery. And the crowd’s ears would perk up and ask, “A woman can divorce her husband!? Can they do that?”
Men knew that they had power. Jesus announces that women have power. And he is about to tell them that children have power, too.
Jesus tells us over and over again that it isn’t right, or holy, to wield power for our own advantage or gain. The power isn’t to be abused, or misused, or set aside. It is to be put into use in ways that reveal the will and power of God, which is to love one another.
OLAS
Date: 9/24/2003
Time: 2:06:16 PM
I suspect this raise more in the minds of people about divorce than power when first read. I am looking for the conection to World communion sunday... One people, One God, One cup, One bread... One power given the power to be the power in our lives so that all will have power and none shall be turned away or denied access by the power of another. this message seems like a power trip! :-) Nancy-Wi
Date: 9/27/2003
Time: 6:02:57 PM
LOL It's Saturday Night, I watch The New Red Green Show here before bed to relax. Red Green is fromc Canada, PBS shows it here. Red has a phrase that fits here. It may not Smart, or correct but it makes me what I am. Red also has his prayer: I am a man, I can Change, If i have to, i guess...Amen Is Red the 13th apostle here? No, that was Chris Rock in Dogma! LOL KIDDING KIDDING... Clerically Blonde on west ohio
Date: 9/27/2003
Time: 11:14:39 PM
OLAS, Wow, I like your musings! I have never heard that side of the story before. I am still trying to decide whether I will preach Mark or another text next Sunday, but your comments on the shocking idea that women had power remind me of the case of Nigerian woman Amina Lawal who was freed this week after being sentenced to stoning for having a child out of wedlock (i.e. committing adultery in the eyes of the court that convicted her). (Total run-on sentence there, but it's late, and I'm tired.) Your comments remind me that women had, and in many cases continue to HAVE little power in our world, and Jesus' affirmation of a woman's power to divorce would have been counter-cultural (big surprise). He does condemn divorce, and I am trying to figure out how to preach that with grace. (I am in my first parish and still feeling somewhat "careful.") But I like your ideas that it isn't right to wield power for our own advantage or gain. That may be a good angle and a way to approach the text without focusing ONLY on the divorce issue. A tough one, as I personally feel that divorce should be the very, very last resort and is greatly over-utilized in our age. However, I know that it is such a common occurrence, and that it needs to be approached with grace in the church. In any case, thank you for your input and for getting me thinking. ~Desiree in Sacramento~
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 1:02:14 PM
OLAS, you have perfectly stated what I was looking for in this. I don't want to preach on divorce. Never been there, have far too many in the church who have. But I can preach empowerment for the "lowly" and show that in Jesus Christ, we are on equal footing. God takes notice of every person, gives every person a place of importance in the Kingdom. In Christ, not one of us ranks above another. We are all lowly and "have all fallen short of the glory of God", yet we are all lifted high because of Jesus Christ. We are in equal need of being made right with God and we are all equally invited to accept Jesus as the way to address that need.
This is the perfect tie-in with Holy Communion. You have made the coming week a whole lot easier with your clear thoughts that move us away from the more obvious theme of the text. Thank you, OLAS.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 4:04:33 PM
OLAS (or any other Methodists), I forgot to ask: What is United Methodist Women's Sunday? ~Desiree in Sacramento~
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 4:30:26 PM
It was Roman law that permitted women to divorce their husbands. It was not part of the Hebrew pattern. When did Roman law creep into Jesus' thinking?
The Rabbi Hillel believed a man could divorce his wife for just about any reason he chose. Any fault or shortcoming would do.
According to the OT, Hebrew men could divorce their wives for "'erwat dabar" (uncovering) which is a euphemism for immorality or indecency. However, actual adultery was punishable by death, so the immoral behavior didn't have to come to that point for divorce. Deut. 24:1 is the only place reasons for divorce are given ('erwat dabar) in the OT and "indecency" sounds pretty non-specific to me. Could it be like the Muslim women have lived with - uncover an ankle at your own risk??? Or could it be dancing for men? Who knows? It was a man's call on what he'd tolerate and what sent her packing. We don't have to look any farther than the modern middle east to see why we needed Jesus to give women more power.
Matthew and Luke give one legitimate reason for a man to divorce his wife - adultery. Mark gives no such specifics.
Paul (I Cor 7:10ff) gives an interesting twist - a woman should not leave her husband, BUT IF SHE DOES.......... Then Paul says the husband should not divorce his wife. Period. No "but if he does...." I wonder if Paul just ran out of ink at that point and never got back to his thought, or if he intended to stop there. Paul also gives room for dissolution of marriage if either spouse is a non-Christian who wants out.
The End of Biblical Marriage Basics 101. Everyone gets an A.
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 5:04:39 PM
If I would choose this passage, which I won't, where is the grace? As others have said, "Too many divorcees here." Should a person who made a mistake in choosing a mate, be condemned to be single for the rest of their lives, or can they make necessary changes and move on. The local Wesleyan Church offers a divorce recovery group. The pastor and his spouse are on their second marriage. PH in OH
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 5:34:50 PM
John the Baptist had just lost his head for protesting Herod's actions. Herod had left his wife to marry his brother's wife. She, of course, had left her husband to marry Herod. Jesus was in a tight situation when the Pharisees asked him for commentary. Weren't they asking him about current events?
His comments, in private, to his disciples, describe Herod's situation exactly. Herod and his brother's wife were not bound by Jewish law.
I, too, want to avoid making this a sermon on divorce, especially on World Communion Sunday. Perhaps there's a key in the other part of the lection -- about approaching God's realm as a child would. Does that contrast Herod's situation? MTSOfan
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 6:30:28 PM
Regarding divorce: been there done that, have the scars! I do not believe Jesus wants us to be in a relationship that continually harms the individuals who are within this marriage. Had to deal with all this struggle as I was already a pastor at the time. The point I reached was that divorce is not a matter of right verses wrong; it is the point of deciding between two wrong things to do. It is wrong to divorce, the damage, especially when there are children is long lasting. It is also wrong to stay together if the damage is so severe that life itself become intolerable. I selected what I saw as the least wrong thing to do. And it is by the grace of God that I started over and have been blessed with a loving marriage.
There is a second part to this pericope; the children that Jesus blesses and sets as a model for all of us. Do not, however, mistake being child-like for being childish! There are some qualities that children exibit that are not to be modeled; such as fighting over some toy, or whining to get your own way. (I think that may preach!) It think the trusting innocence, open love regardless of race or social status all are born into us, until trained out. Hatred has to be carefully, carefully taught! (From "South Pacific")
Rabbii Marc gellman stated a few years ago on Good Morning America: that we think children have no faith until adults give it to them. In actuality children have faith until adults train it out of them! (If you are not sure of this ask any young child about God; it is an education.
A W-G rocky coast me.
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 7:00:11 PM
Desiree in Sacramento- I am UMC and I served before my call on the Wisconsin Conference Team. So I hope I actually can do justice to who they are. UMW Sunday is a time to lift up the mission work of this branch of the UMC. The organization started as a group of women who felt the call to mission and donated 1 penny a week to mission. At the end of the year, their husbands would stand up in church and tell what their money accomplished. Yes, many years ago. However, their purpose is to be in mission to women and children trough out the world. Much of their millions of dollars is spent on education, water, hospitals, and projects that help people out of poverty. The money they raise is kept separate from the rest of the church and controlled by women. They assemble every four years, If I remember right, the next one is in LA in 2005. I know the last one was in Philadelphia last year. Women from around the world assemble, they worship together, sing songs of praise, pray and hear other women's stories. I am always amazed and moved to tears at the great lengths these women go to be at assembly. Many bring young children, are in wheel chairs, on crutches. The total last time was around 10,000
They are the organization that in 1956 presented petition after petition to our General Conference to seek elder ordination for women. They have been instrumental in getting women elected not only as District Superintendents, but also Bishops.
They have a reading program that spans four catagories.
Some would write that they are the kitchen keepers, and they are social organization. The kitchen is a primary way of obtaining funds and the social supports them in their role and in their quest for equallity. End of Soap Box, but as you can tell I love them all. They can be the most contray critters but you gotta lov'em for the work they do through out the World for women and children.
The theme for the four years is " Sing a New Song"
Sorry to all others for which this post might not apply. But Olas insight makes what this organization stands for right on.
Nancy-Wi
Date: 9/28/2003
Time: 9:21:12 PM
Oh, yeow! What texts for World Communion Sunday. I may jump ship here, colleagues.
Anyone with me?
kbc in sc
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 4:23:51 AM
Interesting! How touchy the subject of divorce appears to be.
Thankfully I am not preaching this week, as we have the Bishop visiting.
For me, it is the Pharisees question that sets the tone. Is it lawful? Legality vs righteousness.
The high incidence of divorce in this country has to raise questions, not so much of lawfulness, but of people's right relationship with God.
This is not about blame, but about the fact that this is simply a symptom of the underlying issue affecting us all. We, all of us, are not above being taught by God valuable lessons about how difficult relationships are. And yet, ultimately, they are the most important thing on the planet.
Forget technology, forget progress, forget wealth, etc, etc. For Jesus, relationship are primary. In them lies the entire emphasis of the gospel message. Jesus saw that healthy relationships based upon the principles of forgiveness and compassion on the part of ALL people, were essential, not only to a healthy marriage, but to the wholeness of society.
I have not been divorced. I cannot profess to knwo what that might be like. I can only hear the experience of those who have, but I hear my Lord explaining that the principle behind those failed marriages, are the same principles that apply in a dysfunctional society. Our inability to know one anothers intimate needs and experience.
The void that lies between two human beings, requires enormous energy to breach. I guess I see "hardness of heart", as the inability, or the unwillingness to strive to understand one another.
I pray that we may become better at this as the years unfold.
Yes, it is a prickly subject, but Christ didn't ask us to have a spirit of timidity, when it comes to matters that matter most.
Here's to a compelling discussion as always.
Regards, KGB in Aussie.
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 6:45:23 AM
Whoa!
I was intrigued by OLAS's new perspective, but I don't believe we can use THIS text to support the fact that Jesus lifts up the lowly and gives them power. Carry it through on THIS text and we have Jesus saying, "I give you women the power to sin." KyHC, it sounds like that's where you might go if you run too fast with this one.
I liked particularly what KGB said, "this is simply a symptom of the underlying issue affecting us all." The words on divorce are very close and very painful for us in our congregation right now. We have a female victim of a divorce where the reason is, "because I (husband) want to be with someone else." We also have that husband continuing to fill a spot in the pew most every Sunday, along with his live-in girlfriend (who divorced her husband to be with him), and the divorce of my members is not even final, yet.
I know that sometimes divorce is the lesser of two evils, I've seen cases where that is true, but when it is used for power over another, as someone here already said, it is nothing more than wrong.
Michelle
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 7:12:18 AM
Like many of you, I do not want our World Communion worship to focus on divorce. However, the last few verses of the gospel text may offer some possibilities for preaching. My initial thoughts are to focus on "Let the children come," as Jesus' invitation for all persons to be a part of his love and grace. It is also an invitation for us to bring the children, and we don't have to define children as young folks. Could children represent those who are normally excluded by society because they are not worthy. Could Jesus' words, "Who ever does not receive the kingdom as a child....." encourage us to reach out to all of God's children as well as to remind us that we are not worthy of God's love and grace any more than the outcast among us? We are using children in the leadership of our worship this Sunday and I hope to proclaim that God's kingdom is open to children of all ages.
Tom in TN
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 7:23:37 AM
For the very reason that many people in our congregations have gone through divorce I believe that we must address it directly rather than duck around the difficult issue because we are afraid to offend.
The reality is that divorce is painful for all involved. By definition divorce is sin. (sin=brokenness). The act of divorce itself may not be the “sinful” action. The divorce is the outward and visible sign of the brokenness that has already taken place. It is possible that the divorce is another brokenness/sin that should be avoided (i.e. work hard on the relationship.) We can acknowledge that divorce is always painful without saying that it is always wrong in and of itself. Sometimes it is a worse sin to stay together in abusive (broadly meant) situations.
Children are always deeply affected by divorce. We need to acknowledge that.
This Sunday, with the text’s use of children again, we will have the children’s choir sing and the older youth as liturgists and greeters. I will directly talk about divorce and it’s effect on children and its (still today) greater negative effect on women with an ongoing theme of caring for others more than ourselves.
Steve Hermes Lander WY
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 7:32:42 AM
My first post ever. I'm a huge fan of OT, and book of Job. But love to preach the gospel. Job appears to have been written as a means to get across a point. I even read today in the Upper Room Disciplines a meditation by Knut Bjarne Jorgensen (UM pastor in Denmark), that the book begins "Once upon a time" in the Danish translation. Interesting. Anyway, my point is that Job's wife takes the attitude that Job should "divorce" God for the misery he creates for Job (1:9). But Job hangs in there in the relationship (1:10). It is no coincidence how well it works with the gospel message on divorce for this Sunday. Posting this on gospel page as well as Job page. Jane, Iowa
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:45:14 AM
Jesus announced and enacted in history the new reality of God's surprising activity. These two Markan stories demonstrate this new reality: women and children are accepted and valued, not dismissed as inferior to adult men.
The preacher stands in the pulpit and knows the fractured and broken relationships that are part of his or her life. The preacher looks at the beloved ones of the congregation who have shed tears and spoken of the anguish, shame, and anger that welled up within them at the death of a relationship that had been enacted in public promises before family and friends. This text cuts close to almost all who have gathered for hope this week. There seems to be no one on whom to set your eyes who has not been touched in some fashion, as child or adult, by the force of this word.
The word before us is not to be talked about or around or finessed. This word addresses all of us with the seriousness of God's passion for faithfulness. The promises we make imagine and enact a future. Promises broken unsettle and disturb the present and call tomorrow into question. So it is that the creator of the universe, who sustains all things by a powerful word of promise, would command faithfulness and promise-keeping. So it is that the ruler of the universe would not desire the suffering that comes when relationships break in the lives of God's beloved creatures.
What is amazing is the faithfulness of this God in the face of our promise-breaking. Whether it is the people of Israel or the disciples or the church, this God keeps speaking a word to sustain life. Whether it be worshipers of a golden calf, an adulterous King David, disciples who flee or deny, or a church that is more faithful to a consumer culture than a gospel vision, this God is steadfast in keeping the promise of forgiveness and with grace intruding into our lives.
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:45:55 AM
Three scenes unfold in rapid succession: a controversy story with Pharisees, a private conversation with disciples, and an "intrusion" by children. All three share a concern for the valuing of persons and relationships.
In the first scene, some Pharisees come to "test" Jesus. They try to entrap Jesus on the issue of divorce by pinning him down on what is "lawful." Jesus turns their question around on them. Instead of talking about rights, as they would have him do, Jesus talks about covenant. The Mosaic commandment quoted by the Pharisees actually represented an improvement upon other cultures' customs of that day, where a woman could be dismissed without notice and therefore without protection. It was a step towards protecting the worth of those otherwise vulnerable to the whims of others. But Jesus takes the conversation a step further. For him, definitions of what we "can" do or have a "right" to do are secondary to considerations of what God intends us to do. Women remained vulnerable even with the writ clause. Jesus' more demanding ethic appeals to tradition that pre-exists the "contractual" law reflected by Moses' teaching, to the covenantal ethic of Genesis 2.24 (where two become one flesh). What are the demands of caring for one another, and for the vulnerable in particular, in this context?
The second scene continues the conversation on marriage and divorce, but it has moved to a private place and time. "In the house," the disciples ask Jesus about the question. The second comment attributed to Jesus suggests that this conversation may have grown out of the church of Mark's generation. Nowhere does Jewish tradition in Palestine allow for a woman to sue for divorce. This was particular to the Gentile regions of the Roman Empire to which the church of Mark's day had spread. Here both partners are called to consider the covenantal nature of this relationship and its ending. Covenant demands recognizing and respecting the worth of both partners, by both partners.
The third scene narrates the familiar story when "people," likely mothers, bring children to be touched by Jesus. The disciples try to stop them, but Jesus receives the children anyway. Arms enfold those whom society routinely kept at arm's length. Blessings extend to those who have no power or voice. Worth is affirmed. Receiving God's realm as a child speaks of a trust that adults can find difficult, a trust that yields control and power into the hands of God. As to the sovereign realm of God belonging to "little children," remember Mark's earlier narrative of Jesus and children. To confront an argument about greatness, Jesus puts a child in the centre of his teaching. The little ones, the vulnerable ones, those whose hope owes not to greatness but rather to trust: Jesus now declares "it is to such as these that the realm of God belongs." All three scenes insist on respecting the worth of all persons by not allowing one or some to be "written out" by the prerogative of those in positions of power, or excluded by judgments about those valued less than others. Those whom Jesus embraces, blesses, and protects are the ones conventional wisdom deems it "permissible" to dismiss as unimportant. But where others see only the disposable, Jesus discerns the manifestation of God's love.
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:49:37 AM
I think that Jesus is publicly naming an already private reality. Naming is for many the first step in defining and dealing with the problem.
An earlier poster alluded to divorce = brokenness =sin and I think that’s a theologically valid pastoral way of dealing with the text. Sure we have many people in the pew who have committed adultery violating their marriage or have been the injured party in an adulterous situation. So it is a text that preaches though it has a sharp point.
Everyone has committed adultery in one form or another in their relationship with God, we have all broken trust, we have all flirted with other [things], and we have all cheated on God. Human adultery and human divorce are manifestations of human adultery and human divorce/brokenness in relation with God.
Perhaps the Gospel here is the teaching moment in which Jesus takes the time to explain the divine perspective in experienced human terms. And maybe God is sticking it out for the sake of the children (not that this should be used to justify perpetuating harmful human relationships).
Pr.del in IA
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:51:02 AM
Michelle, I can see your point, and thank you for pointing out some pitfalls here. However, I will be dealing less with divorce per se and more with sinfulness and covenant-breaking in general. I see "marrige abuse" (not taking care of your marriage) as one of many of the great sins we commit against each other and God.
Before Jesus, women were chattel and were powerless to make decisions. If things went wrong, they could say, in effect, "My husband controls things, so I cannot be held accountable for anything. I am a victim of my circumstances." Jesus chimes in with "No, women have power to make life decisions (such as divorce) for themselves. They are not property that has no say-so in these matters."
Men had been grieving God by breaking covenants(writing divorce decrees was one way) for generations. Jesus says they broke these covenants because they were hardhearted. He disapproved of the practice. Now women, empowered by Jesus to see themselves as real people, could now feel free to take the reins... and therefore could also fall into the same pattern of hardheartedness and covenant-breaking. Jesus says "Covenant-breaking is wrong, no matter who instigates it. Sinning against each other is wrong no mattter who is doing it against whom. But women can no longer pass the buck of to their controlling husbands. They are empowered to make their own decisions and therefore bear the onus of those decisions. With the power comes the choice to please God or to grieve God. But you alone face the music. Make the right choice.
I regularly point out to my congregants the difference between crime and sin. I see crime as an illegal offense against another person that is punishable by the court system. I see sin as an act or thought that grieves God; it may or may not involve a crime. Not all of us have criminal records, but sin is a universal burden humans carry. Men, women, young, old, eastern, western, foreign......we have all sinned against our God. Name your own sin, I have mine. But the police are not out looking for us. The law of the land does not ban what we have done. But God is disturbed. And we are all personally responsible for what we do that disturbs God, and cannot hang it onto someone else because they have more power than we have. Jesus saw to that. But he also said, I have come to save humanity from its sins. Men, women.......as your have confessed individual responsibility for your sins, I give you individual absolution from them. Take, eat, this is my body.........
So, I can very well see a connection between this text and World Communion without making a stretch.
I appreciate the diverse views shared here. I thank you all for every one of them. They are all adding to the understanding I gain from Scripture. And they make me think harder than I sometimes want to!
Wow, I do go on, don't I? I'll try not to take as much room this week.
KHC
PS - Divorce for physical or mental abuse? Yep. Sometimes covenant-breaking is done long before the lawyer is called, and the court proceedings are just the final farewell to an already smashed covenant.
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 2:18:15 PM
Desiree, Are you the daughter of my dear friends in Grand Forks/Fargo? If so, good to see you joining here. I often "lurk" about and read the many WONDERFUL discussions here. This is my favorite site -- I am probably the biggest DPS advocate in ND and especially in the NP Conference! You will find these folks are thought-provoking and kind and helpful, as you probably already noticed! Janel in ND
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 5:39:42 PM
I too am a divorced Clergy person and single mom. I too believe that divorce should be the last option, when all other options are tried, but that there are circumstances when divorce is the best thing for all concerned.It certainly was in my case, and I have never regretted the decision, and in fact have been grateful I did make that decision for my son's and my sake. I would say abuse,abandonment, or infidelity are all reasons that divorce is even o.k. in scripture. But I do believe that divorce is made too easy these days. We have a case in our community of a woman whose husband is in the military and went to S. Korea. He had been there for about 8 months when he let his wife know that he wanted a divorce, because he was lonely there, and he had a young Russian woman who was helping him in his lonliness. He kissed his 12 year marriage off because of selfishness. There are two children involved. Now mom has a new boyfriend,(I'll show you! I can get someone else too!) and she spends the weekends with him, shuffling off her children to cousins, and grandparents. The kids have lost both parents. Their son is 11 and he came to me in the parking lot of church with crocodile tears, telling me he had something to pray about. He then stood up in church in front of the whole congregation saying, "Please pray for my parents marriage. My dad has somebody else." It broke my heart. I like this last verse for the children of divorce: "And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them."
I like OLAS statement that we are not to wield power for our own gain. And that Jesus evens the power base by giving it to women and children, but holding all equally responsible for our choices.
I have been a participant in divorce recovery programs, as well as led groups. I can honestly say that the greater majority in the classes I witnessed, at least the people in the groups gave their marriage every possible chance. They needed grace, not condemnation, which thankfully they received. Many have moved on to new and healthy relationships.
I agree that I don't think I will preach this one this week since it is Worldwide Communion Sunday.
Susan in Wa.
P.S. Thanks for all of your comments last week on James. You all brought great insight that informed my sermon. I was altering my message midstream yesterday, as I was seeing things. That was interesting!!
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 5:50:37 PM
Off topic: Mike from Soddy Daisy TN - keep a welcome mat out for Bobby Boutwell, S. Baptist minister of music, leaving Batesburg SC for your part of the world. He's a good guy, we'll miss him in the ministerial association and the commuity. kbc in sc
Date: 9/29/2003
Time: 8:37:02 PM
kbc in sc writes: "Oh, yeow! What texts for World Communion Sunday. I may jump ship here, colleagues.
Anyone with me?"
I think I may go over also. I was trying to work on the gospel here and tie it in to World Communion. There's been great discussion and good connections made here in these posts.
However, I fear I'm not yet accomplished enough to take this passage where y'all are going with it. I may center on the last section, on the 'letting the children coming to me' part --- or may go out of this realm altogether and pick up maybe I Corinthians and go totally World Communion. Haven't decided yet.
Thanks for sharing all your ideas.
MM in PA
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 2:24:28 AM
Much of society has become accustomed to throwing things away, from "Dixie cups" to unborn children. We measure value based on how useful/useless things are to us or how convenient/inconvenient things are now. We have learned that our happiness should be instantaneous and constant, that suffering and struggle should be avoided or, at most, short in duration. In our instant world we have compressed time. Instant coffee evolved to microwave meals, to information in nano-seconds and speed measured in gigaherz. Jesus said, "because of YOUR hardness of heart..." Indeed, our hearts are hard, as are our heads. Then He demonstrates tender-heartedness by blessing children. Perhaps we will not train our children our way, rather His way. ARMY CH E
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:02:55 AM
What are the current statistics for the survival of first marriages? 50%? Recently I read that only 35% of second marriages survive (let alone "thrive"?). It is true that it takes two to make a marriage work, but, in fact, it only takes one to stop it from working. In pre-marriage counseling sessions I will talk to the starry-eyed, Bride's Magazine-dazed couples about the "erosion factor" in married life. It's the daily wear and tear of living together with someone who is far less than perfect. I joke that being married means 'having someone to blame.' But since they are in the hypnotic grip of the marriage industry by the time I see them, I also know that the couple is unlikely to grasp what I am saying until sometime after the BIG DAY.
One pastoral counselor in a divorce recovery series talked about the phrase, "what God has joined together..." and explored the complex variety of reasons that people get married, wondering what insight the participants in the group could now (from the perspective of divorce) articulate about what "joined them together"...How would they distinguish their own will/drive/illusions/wishful thinking from that of God's intentions?
The severing of relationships wherein we have given of 'ourselves, our time and our possessions'is alwys excruciating, with or without the legal/religious overlay of marriage/divorce.
I look at this text's tone and the intention of the Pharisee's question as setting up an antagonistic legal challenge so the discussion that follows is in that mode. What if the question about divorce had came from a broken hearted one who could no longer breathe, live, exist in the marriage? Can we imagine Jesus responding in a different way?
During or after a divorce, some folks are able to confess their 'sin' (brokeness, missing the mark etc), articulate some insight, tell their truth as to their part in the demise of the marriage and then hear/receive/believe the words of absolution. These folks are freed to risk loving and making commitments again--still with no guarantees of being spared the heartbreaks of loving.
I'm persuaded that over the centuries as much emotional/spiritual violence has been perpetuated against women & men (and their children) by the application of this passage (staying married no matter what) as has been experienced by the rampant rates of divorce we are currently seeing.
Unwholesome relationships, no matter their legal/religious status, do not serve to make people whole. And since we come into these commitments already broken (no matter our youthfulness or advancing years)it's a miracle that any marriages work! Yet some do. (The statistical 'success' stories are not greater in the Christian population than in the 'secular' population...in fact, wasn't there a statistical analysis published a couple years ago that indicated less successful marriages within religious affiliations...?)
Having written all this, I must admit that I'm not preaching on this text this year. Sick of it.
I haven't participated in the discussions for several months but have benefitted greatly as an observer. Thanks for the ongoing community of conversation and consolation. Aslanclan
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:11:52 AM
While I have, and will in the future, preach on the divorce issues; this week I shall focus on vs. 13-16; on the invitation of all to the grace of God. It seems to relate more closely to World Communion Sunday. The universality of God's call to come to the kingdom is an important message to deliver in our time of "us against them" thinking. Pastor Rick in FL.
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:34:05 AM
Looking at Mark as being about the obvious - divorce - narrows our focus far too much. It's the "red herring" that takes us away from relationships as a whole. What do we let "divorce" us from God, from our church family, from others who care about and support us?
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:35:13 AM
I'd like to point out that this text will come on the first Sunday in October every three years, with the exception of when Sunday is on October 1. Proper 22 is for October 2-8, so if you use Worldwide Communion as an excuse to avoid this text, it will work almost all the time. We could skip this text altogether!
Maybe Worldwide Communion could be well-served with this text by pointing out the prevalence of brokenness in the world, even between (and within) our churches. Yet, into this broken world, Christ comes. In the bread of communion, Christ is broken for us. He died, so that even in our brokenness we can be made whole.
I believe the communion focus can reveal the good news on a day when much of the gospel lesson sounds more like law.
Use Worldwide communion as an excuse to avoid this text if you must, but don't let them be mutually exclusive, or this text is all but lost to the lectionary.
Michelle
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:42:17 AM
This passage comes within the larger unit of Mark 8.27 - 10.52 in which the cross of Jesus is introduced for the first time. With the cross as the symbol of discipleship, the writer spells out the meaning of being a disciple under various circumstances: in marriage (10.1-12), in relation to children (10.13-17), and in relation to possessions (10.17-31). This section may at one time have been part of a catechism.
The reader notices immediately Jesus' use of Gen 2.24 which is the alternate first reading today. But notice the difference in the sequence of events, here and in Genesis 2. Genesis 2 describes the concord in which man and woman lived with each other and with God. Then follows the alienation, excuse making, and blaming of Genesis 3. Here the order is reversed. We meet first the effects of the Fall in Genesis 3: excuses, fault finding, and blaming. Without interruption since Genesis the causes and results of separation and hostility take their toll. Even the intervening law of Moses could not halt the deadly effects. To those who lack trust laws do not alter behavior but only provide occasions for being more clever and deceptive. The law permits us, twice the opponents said to Jesus who twice responded with the command of God. Unlike those who would use the law to bless the continuation of the "fallen" behavior of Genesis 3, ("The woman you gave me for a companion, she gave to me and I ate"), Jesus calls for a return to the design and purpose of God's creation presented in Genesis 2: one flesh.
But returning to the harmony and unity of God's creation does not come by a new law, "Follow Genesis 2 rather than Geneis 3." Nor does it come by firm resolve and screwing one's courage to the sticking point. Returning to the design and purpose of creation means returning to the very ground and meaning of creation: the gift of life as an act of a gracious God. And what better model than that of a child? The child comes with nothing in his hand, no claim to make, no bargain to strike. A child can "receive" the kingdom. How sharply in Mark's Gospel does Jesus rebuke his disciples on such occasions in which it is clear that they too have missed the point. By their own blindness of unbelief, by their own lack of trust, even well-intentioned disciples contribute to continued alienation and separation. And if it strikes at the very basic and primary relationships, marriage and family, who shall prevent its infecting the church, the whole family of God? If creation and re-creation are acts of God's grace, who can know this apart from trust?
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 7:30:33 AM
I'm planning to go with vv 13-16 because I want to tie in children in poverty with World Communion. It's timely for me and my thinking that the census bureau just released the data on poverty in the US. But my real focus here is that God's children are all through the world. How do we treat them?
It's not that I'm ducking divorce but that our Annual Conference asked us to keep the spot light on children in poverty. Living in a city with a lot of that, it's very relevant to my middle-class congregation who thinks the problem is theirs, not ours.
Joye in Baltimore
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 7:53:25 AM
This hits home with a woman new to our congregation who comes to us from a very literalist denomination. She is divorced and has indicated many times her disdain for those who remarry after divorce - and this is the Scripture she quotes.
I'm almost tempted to avoid this pericope, not because I don't want to bring up a hot topic, but because it may appear that I'm singling her out. I don't want anyone to get even a HINT that I'm using the pulpit to settle a personal score, y'know?
Sally in GA
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 7:57:55 AM
and that's not to mention a couple I happen to know is in the middle of divorce proceedings, but hasn't made it public. And it's a 2nd marriage for both.
S in G
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 7:58:04 AM
and that's not to mention a couple I happen to know is in the middle of divorce proceedings, but hasn't made it public. And it's a 2nd marriage for both.
S in G
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:06:55 AM
Moses wrote the commandment for people b/c of their hardheartedness. Interesting how Jesus pointedly says "MOSES" wrote the law, indicating, perhaps that it's a human law not necessarily ordained by or disapproved of by God.
Then he says "God made them male and female ... for each other ..." He's talking about marriage, but does this not also indicate that we're created to be in each other's company in general? Our spiritual nature is to not be alone in the world.
I think of that part of "Moonstruck" where the Cher character asks her mother why men chase women. She tells him the story of Adam and the rib - and says something like "a man chases a woman because he wants his rib back."
Sally in GA (chatty again today)
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:17:28 AM
Steve Hermes - I appreciate what you said,especially about timidity. I also think timidity can be a good thing when it is the result of pastoral caution. I still think our church is too small to NOT give the impression I'm using the pulpit to single out either this couple or this woman since they are actively going through it. I would caution other pastors of small churches the same way.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:19:07 AM
Thank you all for your thoughts and reflections on a difficult text. One thing that has particularly struck me, in light of it being World Communion Sunday.
Steve Hermes Lander WY wrote "The act of divorce itself may not be the 'sinful' action. The divorce is the outward and visible sign of the brokenness that has already taken place."
In Holy Communion we receive the outward and visible sign of the gracious love of God that reconciles us to God and to one another. I think this is a direction I can work with.
Peace, pcat in va
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:19:40 AM
The New Interpreter's Bible commentary on this episode with the Pharisees demonstrates that it is another conversation like the "Is it legal to pay the tax to Caesar?" question. In other words, it is an attempt to catch Jesus in a politically compromising situation: "Essene interpretations of the Law argue for the permanence of marriage. Polemic against the polygamy or divorce and remarriage of the kings of Israel was generalized to apply to members of the sect as well. The Essene argument against divorce appealed to Gen. 1:27; 7:9; and Deut 17:17. The political implications, hence the danger to which the Pharisees hoped to expose Jesus, become clearer when one recognizes that the Essene legislation was formulated on the basis of rulings about what it was permissible for a king to do. He was not permitted to have more than one wife. Nor could he divorce his wife and marry anohter. Viewed in the light of marriages and divorces among members of the Herodian family, as well as the political manipulation of political marriages in Rome, the Pharisees' question is much more dangerous." (NIB, Vol VIII, pg. 643)
Thus, the episode is squarely one about power and politics, not really about marriage at all. When the disciples inquire further of Jesus in private, he extends personal power to women. The Pharisaic question assumes the Jewish tradition that only a man could divorce his wife. In a sort of back-handed way, Jesus extends the power of divorce to women as well (even though in a perfect world there would be no divorce). "If a man divorces his wife ... if a woman divorces her husband...." One can imagine the disciples murmuring amongs themselves, "Wait a minute! A woman can divorce her husband???? Wow!"
Jesus then continues the outrageous "powersharing" by making allowing a child into the inner circle and setting the child up as the model for those who will be admitted into the Kingdom! This is radical inclusivity. The NIB commentary underscores this as well: "Once again, this behavior [of the disciples' attempting to keep the child away] shows that the discimples do not understand the point of Jesus' ministry, which is inclusive, not exclusive. Including the children also made it possible for the women who had the responsibility of caring for them to hear Jesus' teaching."
These two linked episodes are not about creating new legislation about marriage. They are about "powersharing" and inclusive community.
For those of you who do not do communion every week and are celebrating World Communion Sunday, consider this before you "jump ship" for the week. (Hi there, KBC!)
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 8:48:36 AM
Hi, Eric, and WELCOME BACK! I'm assuming you're the "right" Eric. This sounds like you......
Anyway, thank you for giving support to what OLAS said, which has pretty much become my focus for the week. In fact, yesterday, my day off, I got my bulletin completed and my sermon written because I was so excited about what this text had to say. I appreciate confirmation of the point from too-long-missed Eric!
KyHoosierCat
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 9:13:12 AM
Yeah, KHCat -- it's me, the Eric the Real.
As a follow up to that last post, I went and check the exegesis at SermonWriter. These two paragraphs from a much longer bit also fit in with what OLAS and I were saying:
"Is Jesus condemning all who divorce and remarry? Verses 11-12 certainly give that impression. However, it is interesting to compare these verses with the 'You have heard that it was said…. But I say to you…' passages in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus' words there are equally strict with regard to anger (Matt. 5:21-26), adultery (Matt. 5:27-30), divorce (Matt. 5:31-32), oaths (Matt. 5:33-37) retaliation (Matt. 5:38-42), and enemies (Matt. 5:43-48). Should we regard a divorced or remarried person as hopeless if we do not so regard an angry person, an adulterer, etc.? Is Jesus establishing a new and even more impossible law to replace the already impossible Mosaic law?
"Rather than establishing hopelessly high standards, Jesus is calling us to a purposely high vision. He wants us to conduct ourselves in keeping with God's will so that we might be a blessing to our families, our neighbors, and ourselves. However, when we fail to keep his perfect standards perfectly, our failures remind us that our only hope is -- and always was -- Jesus -- the cross and open tomb. If this is true for anger, adultery, oaths, retaliation, and enemies, it must also be true for divorce."
The whole of this analysis can be found at http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2E811E06
I'm working on Sunday's sermon today (rather than waiting for Friday) because Wednesday there is that little installation service, then Thursday we are entertaining friends who are in town for Wednesday, on Friday we are going about 2 hrs east of here to inter the ashes of the oldest parishioner of my former parish who passed away in August just a few days before her 104th birthday, and Saturday we are going to some state fair sort of thing somewhere IN Akron. So I gotta get this sermon done today!
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 9:57:14 AM
And here's something else that ties this lesson with the Genesis lesson one can use. The emphasis on creation and community ties in with communion. It's from a sermon by a Lutheran pastor:
"The creation story in today’s Old Testament lesson, reveals the broader aspect of God’s will, and that is God’s basic desire that all humanity live in community, in relationship as equals, and not to live in isolation. Nowhere does God tell us when to marry, who to marry, or that we have to marry. What Jesus implies in today’s Gospel is that divorce tears apart all relationships whether it is a marriage, a friendship, or the bond between a parent and child. We have all experienced the agony and pain of broken relationships at some point in our lives. Divorce makes public that private reality, which is the destruction of relationship.
"Yes, God does allow divorce, but God also knows how hurtful it is. A relationship is destroyed. Someone has been cut-off, hurt, isolated from community. But then we hear the words of Jesus telling us, 'Come to me. Come to me when your life and your relationships have been broken. When you are lonely and have been cast aside, I welcome you.' By the grace of God we are redeemed, and we are called into the special relationship in the kingdom of God. NO ONE can take that away!"
The entire sermon is at http://www.zianet.com/peacelutheran/Sermon2000/Ser1008.htm
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 10:54:04 AM
As the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion live in the midst of tension over the issue of biblical interpretation it is interesting that the debate here between Jesus and the Pharisees is over biblical interpretion: Which scripture is authoritative on the issue of marriage and divorce. The Pharisees studied Deuteronomy 24 and Jesus Genesis 2.
What does all this suggest about using the bible to argue one's own prejudices?
tom in ga
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 1:09:54 PM
While I agree with Olas, KHC, Eric in OH, and others, that this is not about simple instructions on marriage and divorce, I can't completely agree that it's NOT about marriage and divorce, either. The Pharisees ask him, it's a test, just like the other times they tried to test him ... and just like the other times, Jesus uses their own example against them, but doesn't simply address it as being incidental to a greater truth. I've read those commentaries, too, but I just can't get past the several verses Jesus spends addressing their test.
For example, when the lawyer tests Jesus about inheriting eternal life, we don't exegete away Jesus' saying "go and do likewise" to the lawyer's correct response of "love the lord your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, and your neighbor as yourself." Any one of us in this room would instruct our congregants to go and do likewise.
It's MOSES' law, written only because it was necessary to, I suppose, keep the peace and guarantee SOME rights for the divorced party. There was another Rabbi at the time (sorry, can't remember the name)of Hillel, who had a much more liberal approach, though Hillel was more popular.
Also, it was Moses', as well as Roman, law. Maybe because of the Roman law (I've read that), but maybe not. For as long as there have been married couples, there has been marital discord.
I maintain my focus: Jesus is making a distinction between the spiritual and the human (Moses' - not God's - law). And I confess that I'm working from memory here.
Regardless, my hesitation is about giving the appearance of revealing a confidence or singling someone out, so I think I'll talk about the human togetherness aspect via Hebrews. I like Eric's quote about Jesus calling us to a purposely high vision.
I've got a headache that won't quit today, so maybe I'm just clear as mud all around.
Eric, blessings during your service tomorrow night.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 1:59:06 PM
Fr. Jude Siciliano, a Roman Catholic Dominican who teaches preaching at the Dominican School of Theologoy and the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, CA, sends out an e-mail "First Thoughts" post to subscribers. In his post this week, he addresses the very issue of how this pericope's marriage/divorce teaching relates to the Eucharist:
"The symbol of marriage also helps us look at today's eucharist. Jesus' first miracle was at a marriage banquet. Two people making a lifetime commitment provided a suitable setting for the miracle that symbolized God's abundant and overflowing love for us. The wine of joy and celebration--over flowing from God to us. Celebrate! Toast the love God has for us!
"Jesus' life, death and resurrection have their powerful effects on us and in marriage we can see these effects concretized in love that is generous, patient, mutual, self-giving, forgiving, faithful and permanent. Marital fidelity is a vivid reminder that Christ stays with us in good times and bad. Marriages do fall apart; sometimes this happens over a long period a splinter at a time, sometimes because of a sudden act of betrayal.
"Jesus presents the ideal today of a permanent loving relationship that reflects God's intentions for humans from the beginning. As it says in our Genesis reading, "the two become one flesh." They are inseparable. But we humans are weak, ignorant, make rash and immature decisions --- and we sin. While Jesus holds out the ideal, he also recognizes our human incompleteness; our hearts are not fully turned to him, nor do we give our hearts fully to one another.
"The gospel presents the vision of a whole new way of acting and being. Whether we are married, divorced, single or vowed celibates, we all know how far we are from fully embracing that vision of new life. We struggle to live the gospel ideal in all walks of life, including marriage, but we fall short. We do not give up the ideal though, we are here today at eucharist to have our hearts turned more fully to the God whose heart is always and totally turned to us. We hope that today is another step on our journey to be faithful, not only to those to whom we have made vows, but to all we are called to serve. We look for more faithful hearts in our service to others. All of us want our loving ways to reflect God's permanent and life-giving love for humanity. If our hearts fall into the category Jesus calls 'hardness of your hearts' then we ask that the eucharist do the work of making our hearts more pliable to God's ways."
Sally in GA -- thanks for your greetings -- and I agree that this passage IS about marriage and divorce. I don't think we can escape that. However, I don't believe Jesus is legislating any sort of new high standard or law about marriage (as some traditions have tried to interpret this). Rather, he has enunciated a "high regard" for the marital estate and set that before us as the ideal. He is not willing to allow marriage to be turned into either a political football (which is how the Pharisees first present it to him) or a temporary convenience (which is the what the Rabbis with their loose interpretation of Moses have allowed it to become).
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:31:47 PM
Thank you all for your contributions. To date I'm just a reader, maybe some day I'll actually contribute.
Phil MT
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:52:50 PM
Hi, Phil MT. Your input will be welcomed.
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 6:54:46 PM
For clerically blonde in ohio:
Another piece of Red Green wisdom for you....
"We're all in this together. Just keep your stick on the ice and stay in the game."
SueCan
Date: 9/30/2003
Time: 9:26:17 PM
I find it helpful to think that maybe God has not joined all people together. Therefore, people are not separating what God has joined together. Maybe God did not (does not) intend for a certain couple to be together.
However, I find some other help in "A Course in Miracles." It says that people blame their external circumstances on their internal needs and lack. When they really need a change of mind, they avoid that by having a change of circumstances. This will happen. And no guilt needs to be further incurred. But eventually, they will need to "learn their lessons," and have a change of mind (turning to God and finding the source of love that fulfills) instead of blaming the externals. The form is not important (be married or be divorced). The content is important (am I connected to God and finding abundant love and life from this source). If we get the content right, we might be able to be in a relationship with most people (everyone?).
Brent in Pincher
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 5:07:38 AM
This being Wednesday, our thoughts and prayers are with Eric in OH as he celebrates his new ministry and we give thanks for having him share his faith with us, desperate preachers!
tom in ga
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 6:22:15 AM
Amen!!
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 6:47:21 AM
Don't knock people who are divorced until you've been through it. I'm in the midst of a divorce right now. My wife of 20 years got involved in an inappropriate relationship (not sexual, but it could have gone that way) and after 6 months of wavering between staying with me and leaving she chose to leave. I kicked her out. Now the relationship with the other guy has fallen through and she wants to come back. This is the second time she has gotten involved in such a situation, and she's a pastor also! I told her I couldn't trust her anymore. She also has a mental illness (bipolar disorder) which has affected her judgement severely. I know if I took her back we'd go through the same thing again in a year. To top it off, she has told me a number of times that she never loved me, but was always in love with the other guy, and married me because he wasn't available and she thought I'd be a good husband and father and take care of her. She is definitely not coming back. It would happen again. If it wouldn't be with the same guy it would be someone else. This is not to judge anyone with mental illnesses--I nursed her through some pretty rough episodes, defended her numerous times, supported her when she was nearly fired because of her illness. But am I going to remain single the rest of my life? No way!
Long and short of it is, I am not going to preach on this passage this year. In the future, maybe. It's too close to home right now.
NY
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 7:33:05 AM
NY, I pray for God's comfort and for your heart to heal. You have suffered, that is plain. You know first-hand the pain of broken covenants, and of the unselfishness required to try to mend them. Sometimes, as Moses found out, it is better to just smash the tablets upon which the covenant is written, and then return to God to get a new one. In other words, God may very well be prepared to give you another marriage covenant to enter. If so, enter it. You have apparently done your best with the old one, but it was broken anyway.
KHC - who has never been married or divorced, so has no right to comment, really.
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 7:56:42 AM
Eric - thanks for the quote from "First Thoughts." I hadn't checked them this week (I keep trying to short-circuit the process, I guess) - though I usually link up to them via Textweek.com. I keep trying to get out of the Gospel, because I'm preaching Hebrews, but I keep getting pulled back in here - there's more talk. Yes, the Eucharistic symbolism isn't lost on me, either. Maybe I need to pray on this more and proclaim the Gospel as written.
Anyways, thank you for your comments. You put it much more articulately than I - it's EXACTLY what I was trying to say. You just said it better!
Sally
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 8:05:13 AM
Prayers abound today:
For Eric in OH, all he has shared with us and the new path laid out for him to do God's work in OH.
And, for NY and the pain he's feeling and for the grace of healing to come.
And, for all those on this site (lurkers, contributors, and even for others who don't even KNOW about this site) who are stuggling with this passage this week. It is close to home for many, both in front of the congregation and in the body of it, and I pray for God's wisdom as we listen for the Spirit guide our thoughts and our words.
MM in PA
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 8:08:28 AM
Dear NY, You are very wise in choosing not to preach on divorce in your present emotional, spiritual and probably physical state. You are not only too close to this, you are LIVING this. You also sound (rightfully so) ambivalent about this separation ("she chose to leave...you kicked her out"). I hope you are both getting counseling. As part of a divorced clergy-couple (8yrs now) I know some of the depth of your pain. Please take care of yourself and spend some time with a licensed professional pastoral counsellor who understands not only the dynamics of family systems but the uniqueness of these issues for clergy in the pastoral ministry. There is HOPE! Healing and shalom come with faith, prayer and often a lot of hard "work" on one's self. You are in my prayers, DSinNJ
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 8:13:10 AM
First off ... I just noticed that I made reference to "The Dominican School of TheoloGOY"... and I wondered what that subject might be: perhaps the study of God by non-Jews???
Secondly ... thanks to Tom and everyone for your prayers today as the folks of St. Paul's Parish, Medina, OH, and I celebrate the new ministry we have begun together. Wish you could all be here to celebrate with us.
Thirdly ... this is probably my last post of the week. I cobbled together my sermon last night, largely from the bits and pieces I've already shared here with you. For the next few days I will be sharing time with family and friends visiting for the installation service, and going to East Liverpool, Ohio (no, there is no West Liverpool - go figure) to inter the ashes of Helen Downard.
Helen was a remarkable woman who lived nearly 104 years; she passed away in mid-August. She was a parishioner at my last parish. She was a professional piano and organ teacher and a church organist for many different denominations. She had some of the funniest stories to tell about worship-gone-bad (you all know the sort of thing).
Her daughter and son-in-law are coming from Overland Park, KS, for tonight's service and staying for a few days of visiting and to inter Helen's ashes. We will do that on Friday. I would ask you to pray for the repose of her soul and for comfort for Martha and Bill and her many grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 8:53:05 AM
A word of caution to those who will be reading the whole gospel and preaching only on the last part. We sometimes say more with what we don't say. If you aren't going to preach on the first part, you may want to consider not reading it. LGB
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 9:08:37 AM
Eric, I wish you'd "cobble together" your sermons about a week ahead of time and post them so I could just steal them. Have a good week.
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 9:13:43 AM
This is the second of four Sunday's in our annual stewardship campaign. There is a common thread of God's mercy that seems to weave the three readings in the Episcopal lectionary for this Sunday. Our giving comes from gratitude for God's grace. Grace in giving us bone of our own bone, and flesh of our own flesh so that we might have a suitable mate and companion. God's grace in becoming one of us, giving up his very life to show us the way to life in all of its abundance. God's grace in showing us mercy when we fail in the relationships entrusted to our care. This is going to be tricky. Any ideas or comments will be greatly appreciated!!!!
Susan in GA
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 10:01:49 AM
God's grace requires of us a response. We can't just take what he offers and merrily go our way. It requires something from us as a humble and very genuine Thank You. A changed life. A concerted effort to include, not exclude. A genuine plan to mend broken relationships/covenants. Etc. And, in the theme of Stewardship, to turn over to God those things that we use for our own gain (money, time, talents, etc, all blessings from God) and to offer them for the gain of the Kingdom. It is all in response to what God has already done for us. To receive from God's abundance and to not make a real sacrifice to show our gratitude is the height of arrogance. It is to say that we somehow deserved what we have received. (Did Job fall into that trap before he was put to the test?)
In my home Church, we used to sing the first verse of "We Give Thee But Thine Own" every single Sunday when the Offering was presented. It is burned in my head and heart that I own nothing, but God has allowed me the privilige of using what I have. I must use it to his purpose. Because he used what he had for mine.
My thinking is pretty simplistic, really, but it's what came to mind when I read your post about Stewardship.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 11:24:49 AM
I am thinking of making the connection between this passage and worldwide communion by speaking about getting hung up the legalities and missing out on the love and the purpose of what we are doing - not just in our faith life but in everyday life. The Pharisees are hung up on legalities. Jesus speaks about the heart. Earlier in my life, I used to get so hung up on "doing it right" when it came time to receive communion. I would worry that I didn't give the right reply when receiving the bread; I would worry whether I was to eat the bread as soon as I got it or would we be waiting and eating it as one; what if the little glass I chose got stuck in its hole wouldn't come loose. At some point, I realized that I was so hung up on doing it right I totally missed Christ and I shifted my focus.
One of the greatest joys of my ministry is that I serve a church which welcomes children of all ages to the Table. It is so meaningful to serve children as their parents help them break off the bread and dip it in the cup. True communion, true welcoming. Lats year, I arrived in a rush at the second point of the pastoral charge. As I invited people to come to the Table, I realized that no one had told me they would be helping me serve, so asked, "Who will help me serve today." An 8 year old boy who was already up and ready to receive to communion, said, "I will" "Oh dear," I thought, "what will people think if I have him serve?" I was sure most would be okay, but I thought some may take exception. But I realized there was no way I could refuse such an eager heartfelt offer. So he stood beside me and offered the bread. At one point, I realized he wasn't making eye contact with the people he served, so I quietly whispered to him that he was telling them something very wonderful and that he should look into their eyes when he served them. And he did. I'm certian it was a meaningful expereince for him - it certainly was for me. I realize that the "legalities" of some would have said no to his serving, but I know that our Lord said, "Let the little childfren come to me..." This may be good Sunday to have the children help with the special meal. Blessings LGB
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 11:31:22 AM
I am focusing on integrity, because that is really at the core of a marriage. The question is are we looking for loop-holes to get out like the Pharisees, or do we have integryt? I think there can be a lot of bridges from integrity in all of our relationship to world communion. Janet in NJ
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:03:59 PM
from the Executive Summary of the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (available online from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services or the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect): Family Characteristics Children of single parents had a 77-percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse, an 87-percent greater risk of being harmed by physical neglect, and an 80-percent greater risk of suffering serious injury or harm from abuse or neglect than children living with both parents.
This was updated in February of this year. Statistics on Poverty and children also correlate to divorce and single parenthood. I may not use these statistics out of sensitivity to the many single parents out there and the reality that most do wonderful jobs and there are "in tact" homes that are horrid. However, I feel that we need to preach on marriage, divorce and remarriage at least occasionally in the face of a world of hurt that comes through the realities of family life in the us during the 21st century.
Lewis in Alabama
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:08:52 PM
LGB - what a lovely story.
Sally
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:58:46 PM
This is one of the most difficult texts for me. I have never preached either for it, about it, or against it. Divorce is a tragic thing no matter how one looks at. Held side by side to the pictures of the wedding day or the dating days, divorce speaks of dashed hopes and broken dreams. Divorce: it just is simply not the way everybody involved had hoped things would turn out.
Jesus puts it that divorce is “allowable” in a hard hearted society where relationships are a matter of rules and regulations, laws and commandments. But in a society of grace, where everything is a gift and all of us recognize our vulnerability, there is no room for divorce. Indeed, there can be no divorce in such a relationship!
For me, this text can stand next to world communion Sunday in a bold and real way. It is a text that speaks about the condition of human relationships in our world across racial, tribal, ethnic and economic lines. The wonderful family that God had created “red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight” is not the way the Genesis exclamation of “it is good!” had promised.
Coming to God’s table to eat together takes the focus off each other for a moment and puts the spotlight on God our host. We can for that “table moment” shift from conversations of blaming each other and faulting on another, to recognizing that in the end we are all in need of bread. That in the end, we are mortal creatures clinging desperately to the immortal.
This is really important for us as a human family. No matter our race, color or creed, divorce is not an option. And the only way to live with each other is to exercise the kind of grace we find at the table.
I am thinking as I type. Probably rambling and deceiving myself into thinking I am getting excited about talking divorce and serving communion in one hour. Ha!
PastorPastor
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 12:58:56 PM
This is one of the most difficult texts for me. I have never preached either for it, about it, or against it. Divorce is a tragic thing no matter how one looks at. Held side by side to the pictures of the wedding day or the dating days, divorce speaks of dashed hopes and broken dreams. Divorce: it just is simply not the way everybody involved had hoped things would turn out.
Jesus puts it that divorce is “allowable” in a hard hearted society where relationships are a matter of rules and regulations, laws and commandments. But in a society of grace, where everything is a gift and all of us recognize our vulnerability, there is no room for divorce. Indeed, there can be no divorce in such a relationship!
For me, this text can stand next to world communion Sunday in a bold and real way. It is a text that speaks about the condition of human relationships in our world across racial, tribal, ethnic and economic lines. The wonderful family that God had created “red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight” is not the way the Genesis exclamation of “it is good!” had promised.
Coming to God’s table to eat together takes the focus off each other for a moment and puts the spotlight on God our host. We can for that “table moment” shift from conversations of blaming each other and faulting on another, to recognizing that in the end we are all in need of bread. That in the end, we are mortal creatures clinging desperately to the immortal.
This is really important for us as a human family. No matter our race, color or creed, divorce is not an option. And the only way to live with each other is to exercise the kind of grace we find at the table.
I am thinking as I type. Probably rambling and deceiving myself into thinking I am getting excited about talking divorce and serving communion in one hour. Ha!
PastorPastor
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 1:09:31 PM
LGB- Thank you for sharing the story about children and communion -- I really needed it this week. I've been in my first parish for three months, a very small church that for the first time in years has two children. On Sunday I told their mother I'd like to talk with her about communion and the boys. Well, the matriarch of the church overheard and was in my office yesterday morning to let me know that "those boys are not ready to receive communion!" Sigh. At our session meeting tonight we'll talk about how to prepare the boys for communion, but the church has only been celebrating the Lord's Supper once a quarter (!) and I get the impression that for some, the sacrament is more nuisance than nourishment. I was planning on preaching on Hebrews, connecting brothers and sisters of Christ with world communion sunday. But it seems that some basics about why we come to the Table at all might be in order.
I found DPS a few weeks ago -- thank you all for the helpful and challenging posts!
Leanne in AL
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 1:43:42 PM
I find it helpful to ponder this reading with other messages of Jesus in mind. His own acceptance of "sinners" evidently included prostitutes and at least one woman caught in adultery. He was the "friend of tax collectors and sinners" which is not a harsh legalist. And he talked to the Samaritan woman, who had gone through five marriages and was living with a sixth man, in a way that invited her to find life from a different source (another well). He did not shut the door on her. And how is it that all of us commit adultery by lusting after another? How can we, then, be legalistic to others who go through a divorce? We commit adultery by getting divorced. We commit adultery by lusting after another. What is happening in my mind that I am thinking life is to be found in another mate or lust? Is Jesus trying to say that when I find life in God, those external "wells" will not be so tempting? Communion is an outward sign or symbol about finding our life in God. Is it possible that having a religious ceremony is not the same as God joining together? Maybe God does not intend on two people being together just because they have a religious service? Getting married in a church is not the same as the spirit moving two people to be together. Surely we can't equate a religious service with the spirit's obvious leading? Brent in Pincher
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 2:17:11 PM
I am contemplating replacing the Hebrews text with the one about having this treasure in clay pots, so that I can lift up our fragility, our brokenness, and Christ as the glue.
Maybe...
Michelle
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 3:41:26 PM
To KHC,
Thanks for what you have written. It got me thinking about smashed covenants generally. I like that image. I see them everywhere. We need Jesus to restore what we have broken.
Anonymous
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 4:13:56 PM
Leanne in Al I will keep you and your session in my prayers. As far as children understanding or being ready to receive communion, John Calvin said, "I would rather expereince it than understand it." Children do experience it and often with more joy than some adults! If the session digs in their heels, possibly you could have the boys come forward with the rest and offer them a special blessing. I do hope they will be welcomed as part of the family to the table. Welcome to desperate preachers. I would indeed be desperate without all these wise and wonderful people. Blessings LGB
Date: 10/1/2003
Time: 7:28:58 PM
Leanne in Al I will keep you in my prayers.How important is the serving of communion for you? Sounds like it is quite important? What about asking the woman whose saying the boys are too young, how she interprets Jesus words “let the children come to me, and forbid them not”. Could you ask her when did she first receive communion? Before I retired, I was an associate in a congregation, where before either the senior pastor and I came, communion had been served quarterly. The members even stayed away on that Sunday because of the length of the service. The senior pastor, who liturgically needed to serve communion more often, began a small early service where communion was always served.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 7:12:49 AM
I am approaching this text with the main idea of hardness of heart in mind. Hardness of heart is what led the Pharisees to question Jesus.
Hardness of heart is what leads us to look for what we can get away with rather than for what God intends for us. Just because God will allow you to do something, doesn't mean he wants you to.
In Greek it is one word, sklerokardia. It is the same word we use when we describe Multiple Sclerosis. MS occurs when the nerve fibers in your body harden and cease to function.
Sklerokardia could be described as a disease, actually a spiritual disorder, in which your heart becomes rigid and inflexible. Zechariah 7:8-12 give a good picture of what hard-heartedness is like. My own definition is "the unwillingness to be corrected and guided by God."
This is where the children come in. Children are trainable. The concrete in their hearts has not yet completely hardened. To a large degree, they can be guided and corrected. They don't always like it, but they are much more responsive to correction that we adults are.
The only way to receive the kingdom of God is to come as a child who is willing to be guided and corrected by God. This will naturally, (or perhaps supernaturally), lead to repentance and confession of sins.
You will no longer come go Jesus looking for indulgence. Instead, you will come to learn what he wants you to do.
Just some thoughts
GC in IL
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 7:38:52 AM
Here is a crazy thought for a Thursday. Last week, Jesus was giving one of his hard sayings about "cutting off" that which offends. Could one think of that cutting off in terms of divorce either by husband or wife; but that it is not in the mind of God who created us not to be alone, etc.
Just a thought,
tom in ga
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 7:44:00 AM
Receptivity:
In the first half off this reading, the question of the Pharisees addresses the limits of receptivity: when it is lawful to divorce?
Jesus responds by saying that man and woman are countersigns to each other and are there for each other in creation. Receptivity is at the heart of our relationships.
He sums up his conversation by inviting the children to come to him. Receptivity is something that children know about and adults have forgotten. Children are the very models of what our life is meant to be in God and among each other.
tom in ga
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 8:09:43 AM
Aslanclan, I agree that the Pharisees set this up to be a legalistic question/discussion. Yet there are other confrontations with the Pharisees where that was their intent but Jesus responded in another way. (render unto Casear, the woman caught in adultery). I find it.. odd? jarring?... that Jesus continued the legalistic tone here. Why? Heather in ON
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 9:08:30 AM
Heather in ON asks: "I find it.. odd? jarring?... that Jesus continued the legalistic tone here. Why?"
I think the reason Jesus presents his response to the Pharisees in a legalistic tone, is because the question was presented to him as a legal issue. Notice too that Jesus holds back the hard saying only for disciples and yet he softens it by saying that even though a man 'divorces' his wife, he commits the greater sin by committing adultery against her. If man/woman are flesh of flesh and bone of bone, then their very oneness prevents the "putting away", the "dismissal" of the woman by the man. These are hard saying in our time and yet we are forced to wrestle with them.
tom in ga
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 10:04:03 AM
A reminder that fits in well with this text. October is national domestic abuse awareness month.
Michelle
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 10:43:58 AM
KHC
Thanks for your thoughts tieing the lections into a stewardship theme. You will be in the pulpit with me this Sunday.
Susan in GA
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 11:31:27 AM
WOW! Thanks to you all for the wonderful dialog this week. I have struggled all week with what I was going to preach, feeling that none of the passages were really jumping out at me for World Communion and/or peacemaking. But after struggling and seeing so many wonderful thoughts about Covenant, writing off or receiving, legalsism vs. grace, I am coming back to the Gospel passage and feeling very passionate about it. It dawned on me this week too, that I brought home an international doll collection that I have had since I was a little girl. I am going to place the dolls all over the communion table to represent the people of the world who are celebrating at the table with us, and that it is at the Table of the Lord where our Covenants to God and one another are reconciled and celebrated.
Thanks to you all, I can breathe again! and to NY who is going through divorce right now with a clergy spouse, you are in my prayers. My situation is very similar although mine was 7 years ago. God's grace is in abundance for you and for her. It does get better.
To the one who brought out statistics about all the things that children of broken families are more prone to. Please leave that out of the sermon. As a single mom, who works very hard to provide a stable home for my son, and positive male role models for him since that is one thing I cannot provide, I have a very stable, secure and delightful son. No one seems to talk about the children from "Broken homes" (I hate that term. We are not "broken" because we do not have a male living with us.) who are more independent, responsible, sensitive,& creative because of their circumstances. But most of all, Sunday morning's message is to bring grace and hope to God's children, not to batter them with statistics that they can and probably do read in the newspaper, on the news or on line. The Gospel is GOOD NEWS.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 11:44:28 AM
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful postings. I am certainly reaping where I have not yet sown! I look forward to contributing, not just receiving the benefit of your insight. I hope we can all "wrestle a blessing" out of this text this Sunday. Grace and peace to all of you. LF
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 12:20:38 PM
Divorce can happen in organizations. The Presbyterian Laymen newspaper had an article about someone (not from the Laymen) who has finally offered a plan to split the PCUSA. The man believes that he will end up with a smaller denomination where everyone is in agreement. Silly man. God put us all together as Jack Rogers notes, we are a rag tag scruffy bunch rather like a family. We middle of the road folk would like the money the hobby horse groups spend on mailings to every pastor and congregation for mission and ministry in our locales. If this divorce happens it will be because of human hardness of heart. That will preach. Eric, E. Liverpool is about 30 miles from 1st Westminster Pres. Church in Steubenville. Sue in Ohio (formerly in Kansas).
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 1:11:43 PM
Susan in WA, I like your international doll collection idea. I don't have one of those, but I have often used a variety of "cups" for World Commuion Sunday -- one of beautiful English bone china, a clay Mexican creation, one carved from stone from India, an Asian teacup.....you get the idea. They are on the Communion Table along with the cup we will actually use. We don't drink out of the different cups for Communion because that would just ruffle too many starched feathers, but the message of unity in Christ is still clear.
I make my own bulletin covers every week, and this week I am using an assortment of foreign words that mean Peace - since this is Peacemaking Sunday in the PC(USA). There will be about 8 or 10 different bulletin covers this week...one word per bulletin....not an earthshaker, but still makes the point, I think.
I'm so glad you found something uplifting and positive in the text this week, Susan. I got really excited about it early on, when I realized it went far beyond just the covenant of marriage and the legalism of divorce. If it had not been for the DPS contributions, I would have skipped it altogether.
KHC
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 1:12:25 PM
Sue in Oh,
I know where E. Liverpool is! I used to be in the Upper Ohio Valley Presbytery. We probably know a lot of the same people. I was in Shadyside, Bellaire and lived in New Martinsville, WV.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 2:34:01 PM
To Nancy in NJ,
Since you are focusing on the question of integrity, there is a great Call to worship in the Cokesbury Lectionary Aids, Liturgy, Music Preaching and the Arts. Year B. I will post it on the Call to Worship page.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 2:37:59 PM
Being divorced and still single pastor, I find this text challenging. I know divorce is wrong. I have lived through the hell of divorce. Ending a relationship is always difficult. It is like someone has died and yet they are still alive, somewhere. I have not seen my x in over 9 years. I don't even know if she is alive. God does not like divorce. God does not like us to go around making promises we can't keep and often don't intend to keep when we make them. I had a young woman tell me once that she plans to get married someday, but she did not want to stay married to that one person the rest of her life. That is the kind of attitude that brings about adultry. I failed at marriage, but God has grace. I have not remarried. I'm not sure if God wants me to remarry, but that is between me and God. I had a sweet loving well intentioned, good Christian talk to me after I had taken a new charge and wanted to know if I would ever remarry. She said, If I do, I will be living in sin. I could have gotten angry, and I almost allowed it. However, I know that my relationship with a women can only be judged by God and I can come to him for guidance like a child even when others are trying to keep me away. I better stop now, I might start preaching. BT in IN
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 2:43:26 PM
KHC,
Oh, what a wonderful idea of using the different cups on the Communion table! I love it. I only wish I had more time to look for more of them. But, looking for them will give me something to do over the coming year that will bring the point home more clearly next year. This year we're doing different colored breads -- no big deal, but this church thought it was so totally unique and different. Hey, if that's how they feel about bread, just think of the image that cups would convey!
MM in PA
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 4:46:03 PM
BT in IN, I have never been married or divorced, but I know something about Grace. I see second chances written all over God's heart. Jesus has never told us "if you blow this one chance, there are no more." He mends brokenness everywhere he finds it. Peace to you.
KHC
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 5:31:02 PM
That Christian who said, "If you remarry, you will be living in sin," was living in sin herself. Aren't we all?
However, there is forgiveness. I believe that sometimes God does bless a person with a new covenant relationship, when the old one could not be salvaged.
Michelle
Date: 10/2/2003
Time: 9:26:42 PM
GC in IL - thank you for your thoughts. Interesting. Brent in Pincher
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 1:20:25 AM
I worked one summer as an apprentice carpenter building forms for pouring concrete slabs and columns on buildings. I was amazed at how the carpenters would measure the space and then measure the wood. They would measure carefully and cut precisely and then they would trim the piece to fit. But often it still wouldn't fit. Then they would say, "I'll make it fit. Give me that sledge hammer." Sure enough they would make it fit.
Seems to me we preachers do that with the lectionary and the church calendar. I have decided not to use the sledge hammer to make these texts fit with World Communion Sunday. I'm going with a passage from John that seems to be a better fit with World Communion. See y'all next week. Creature Wayne
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 3:38:23 AM
Completely without connection to these lessons or the on-going discussion....
Pictures of our Celebration of New Ministry at St. Paul's: http://www.stpauls-medina.org/celebration.html
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 5:09:30 AM
On my way to East Liverpool for the interment of Helen's ashes (Sue, I'd come looking for you if I weren't otherwise involved with out-of-town friends in all of this!)
However, I just received the following from a colleague named Lane Denson who publishes as occasional e-mail newsletter called "Out of Nowhere". These are his thoughts on the Propers for this Sunday:
"There is great comfort in the creation story by the affirmation that God does not want us to be alone and that the way God accomplishes this, as Jesus reminds us, is by making us both male and female (Gen 2.18-24; Mk 10.2-9).
"Underlying all this is our faith that we are made in the image of God, that somehow, we are what God imagines human being to be, not alone, for one thing, and, please note, not male or female, but male and female.
"Creative artists nearly always reflect something of themselves in their creations. Perhaps the same thing is true about God. If it is, then 1) God does not wish to be alone and 2) God contains all we can ever say or know and more about both male and female.
"God cares enough, yearns enough, loves enough, wants us enough to put the full force of the cosmic imagination into our being exactly the way we are.
"Whatever these lessons say about marriage, about family, about intimacy, about our sexist and phobic tendencies, they say plenty. Not the least of what they tell us is the way we can so thoroughly mess up the message. Still more wondrous of what they say is it that in our creation, we are made for relationship, that we are incomplete without it, that we are given the capacity to co-respond not only to and with another, but also to and with ourselves, for in that way, we are never alone. Thus are we made ready for grace, for our relationship with God.
"Henri Nouwen speaks of spiritual growth as 'reaching out' in three ways. We give audience to ourselves as we grow and reach from loneliness to solitude, to our fellows, as we grow and reach from hostility to hospitality, and to God, as we grow and reach from illusion to prayer.
"This is the way we strive to complete ourselves and to be completed. We've learned in our psychology what God has known all along, that we've different ways of being conscious of ourselves as part of God's creation. We call them feminine and masculine until we find a better way. It is a serious, crippling, and ultimately fatal mistake to assume one superior to the other, for it is truly, I believe, to separate what God intends as one.
"To affirm that is why we are here. We come together in liturgy -- the work of the people, not only of one -- to be in this place together, to hear and learn of these things, to be in relationship in this place, to share and to respond to these mysteries which we are. To paraphrase Pogo, one of my favorite theologians, 'we have met the mysteries, and they is us.'
"So stop by for a moment -- to correspond -- to exchange love letters with one another and with God." (Lane Denson, "Out of Nowhere", October 3, 2003)
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 5:11:00 AM
Oops, the "Out of Nowhere" quotation is from me.
Eric in OH
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 6:24:18 AM
It is easy to see how this text can be seen as being just about divorce. But, I don't see that. Well, I should say that I don't see that ANY MORE. I don't feel like I'm standing on my head to find how I can make this text "fit" with World Communion. I think it fell into place without having to be bent to fit the theme of the day.
I don't believe that the Pharisees cared one wit about what Jesus thought about divorce. Elucidation on the topic was not their purpose. They wanted to trap him, and this was just one topic of many they could have used to try it. In light of John the Baptist's execution for speaking out about divorce and remarriage, this was sure a handy topic for anyone who wanted to be rid of yet another pesky preacher. Jesus replied not as a legalist but as one who cared about covenants and the spirit of what God had intended. It is not God's purpose for us to live alone, outside of covenant relationships with each other and with God. But these covenant relationships (of all sorts) get smashed along the way. We divorce ourselves from God, from one another, from our neighbors, and even from our true selves sometimes. It is wrong each and every time we do it, and truly, we don't deserve a second chance.
Even so, God, in his endless grace, has given us another, albeit undeserved, chance. He has made this new covenant in his own Son, to whom we turn in our brokenness and our sinfulness, to receive atonement and newness of life. God's intention remains "it is not good for humans to be alone" even if they have divorced themselves from God, family, etc. God provides the way, through his Son's death and Resurrection, for us to not be alone in our sinfulness, but to be cleansed and made whole through our faith in Jesus Christ. Our old covenants may be broken beyond repair, which grieves God, but God is continually renewing this New Covenant with us, inviting us to himself.
The ability to break covenants is an equal opportunity experience. Jesus Christ is the equal opportunity Redeemer.
Since I'm sort of a "Spirit of the Text" interpreter of Scripture, I am quite comfortable with this "take" on it, and feel it is true to what is being said. Others may see it simply as a discourse on divorce. To each his/her own interpretation.
As stated previously, I owe my sermon this week to the track DPSer's put me on. Signing off with gratitude,
KyHoosierCat
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 7:32:57 AM
Any ideas why Jesus waited until the Pharisees were gone before he ventured into the subject of re-marrying being adulterous? Could it have been because his "time was not right" to be putting his neck on the line? Seems to me that if it were a viewpoint he wanted to broadcast, he would have stated it very clearly to the Pharisees. And preached it seaside or from the mountainside. But he reserved it for a quiet conversation with the 12.
Still very interested in this text....
KHC
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 10:35:21 AM
I well understand the reluctance to preach this text (Mark 10:2-16). My first reaction when I realized the content of this week's lectionary was, "Boy, I hope the epistle is good." But, I've found a tack to take with this text which I think will uplift rather than depress. I've been working the last several weeks in the Markan texts on the notion that the community has a deep responsibility to its members and that if one stumbles it means that the whole community needs to take a closer look at what it's doing to nurture and sustain. I noted last week that neglect can be as much of a "stumbling block" as outright incitement to engage in sinful activity. One of my peeves with our mainstream denominations is that we do so little to truly nurture and support marriages. Young people with no clear idea of what marriage is really going to mean get maybe an hour's worth of pre-marital "counseling" from a preacher who may or may not have skills in that area. (I recall the advice I got when I married . . . many years ago . . . at twenty-one: "Money is the biggest cause of problems in marriage, and, when it comes to sex, if there is something that disgusts one partner, the other should not insist upon it.") I don't see "divorce" as a single event that occurs when a judge bangs the gavel and dissolves the marriage. "Divorce" is a process that may begin the first time two people meet (!) "Divorce" is a process of sequential failures by one or both parties to put time and energy into making the marriage work. "Divorce" is a process that continues after the legal declaration if either or both parties choose to use the courts as weapon to club the other over the head (I'm an ex-lawyer, so I know whereof I speak) or where the children are used as political footballs (as hideous a sin as I can imagine). Where is the church while this process unfolds? We say that marriage is the Christian ideal, but what do we DO about that? If all we can offer is to say it's a sin (which I do not dispute), then we bring too little too late. The grace here is that the body of Christ remains fully empowered to nurture marriage and heal the brokenness in our culture that results in divorce. The community can't prevent every divorce, but it can do a whole lot more than it has traditionally done to sustain and nurture the institution. In Christ, Web313
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 2:30:18 PM
I would like to use a different communion litury for World Communion Sunday. Does anyone have a suggestion? LH in NJ
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 6:36:39 PM
KHC asked "Any ideas why Jesus waited until the Pharisees were gone before he ventured into the subject of re-marrying being adulterous?"
I don't think Jesus would have brought this up again at all.... it is the disciples who waited and then asked in their private meeting with him. They are the ones who instigated this further discussion.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 6:56:29 PM
Eric, thanks. Yes, you are correct. Somehow I was reading that "And when they went into the house Jesus spoke to them again about this matter." That is NOT what it says. Thanks for clarifying this.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 10/3/2003
Time: 11:01:31 PM
Eric in Oh,
I thank you for sharing the pictures. I absolutely love the name of your dog! Priceless!! I used to serve a church in the Upper Ohio Valley Presbytery, which is where E. Liverpool resides. I actually was on the West Virginia side of the Presbytery for living purposes, but served two small churches on the Ohio Side.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 7:01:30 AM
I use a large number of breads for World Communion - everything from pita to taco shells to Italian and French. It is displayed in large baskets from Africa on the altar and during the children's time, we go through it all and they get to sample it. Makes a heck of a mess on the floor but that's what God's people are - messy. After worship, anyone who wants is invited to come up and sample. The idea is that bread is all different shapes, colors and sizes and so are God's children.
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 11:55:35 AM
Web313 Thanks for your comments. I find them helpful
Eric in Ohio. I enjoyed looking at the pictures. Very happy for you - it seems like a great beginning. You have less hair than I imagined - and it is not as dark as imagined too!
I'm not giving up on theology, but I'm down to jokes. "Why did the cow get a divorce? - she got a bum steer." "Did you hear about the man who was so into recycling he vowed he would only marry a woman who had been married at least once before."
Brent in Pincher
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 1:13:53 PM
Friend Brent saith: "You have less hair than I imagined - and it is not as dark as imagined too!"
It used to be longer, thicker and darker. And my waist used to be smaller.
Long time ago....
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 10/4/2003
Time: 2:56:51 PM
I once used to HAVE a waist.
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 4:28:50 AM
Web313
You're right. This post may be too late for anyone else to see, but you're right.
Michelle
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 5:06:45 AM
It's been a tough week with tough texts to preach. We have relied on each other to understand what God wants us to glean from his Word. May his Spirit be with each of us as we share not only the Word, but the Sacrament of Holy Communion today as one community of faith.
Peace to all.