In South Carolina we are faced with the prospect of having video poker become a way of life. On November 2, we'll go to the polls and vote on a referendum that will either outlaw those machines or entrench them. Obviously, our churches, almost every denomination, are working to defeat the referendum. As I read Paul's words from this passage, though, I'm wondering if there is a way we can approach the battle from the standpoint of, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Anybody got any ideas out there? -Paul of SC
Can someone confirm the translation of 12:9. My understanding is that the Greek is more like - "Love is genuine. It (love) hates what is evil. It holds fast to what is good. Is this accurate? If so, any idea why it is translated the other way in the English text?
RS-NY
I've thought about giving my sermon for Sunday the title, Reverse Response. We as believers in the teaching of Christ are called to not respond the way the world would, but the way Christ would. I want to address some problem areas - actually confilict areas that have been going on lately in the church I will be preaching in. I am a guest preacher. There is a great deal of tention between the "old timers" and the new people. It is an inner city church and many unchurched people come from time to time. One of the hassels is over the fellowship hour, where there is no real fellowship. The members sit at certain tables and the unchurched people and new members sit at others. there is also a great deal of tension over the behavior of the children of the unchurched. Complaints about the amount of food they waste and so on. There is a definate them and us mentality. There is also a great deal of tension between some of the members and the Pastor who, in their eyes, does not instruct these people on the proper behavior in a church. The words from Paul seems to be a good reminder for all parties involved, including the Pastor of the church. Please lift my struggle with this sermon up in prayer and I will check back for any feedback or suggestions any of you might offer.
MH, NY
To MH NY I like your idea of Reverse Response. The text cert ainly calls us from a response that conforms with the worlds way of doing things to a transformed respnse. As I look at the expectations listed in the passage I realize that very often the proper Christian response is not the one I am automatically inclined to desire and choose. The right choice is a struggle that goes against my nature. It's like taking up an unwanted cross. Yet there is a struggle because there is another force inside of me that compels me to do the right. The right and the good has a chance of prevailing only when I remember the mercies of God and when I manage to not think more highly of myself than I should. Otherwise I act upon what I want without regard to what God wants and what works to God's glory. When people act otherwise than what the text calls us to it is a of matter arrogance (pride) that forgets the suffering of the cross and selfish ly wants it's own way. When people in a church act the way you describe it's because they think God and the world owe them something when the exact opposite is true. We owe God a dept we can never repay but what God asks of us is that we live to God's honor and glory by living by the principles of love that are consistent with God's character.
Sinbad Goose Creek SC
Sinbad - thank you so much for you imput. Another sermon title that had come to mind was "Pushme-Pullme" the name of the lama (sp?)from Dr. Doolittle. We are constantly pushed and pulled over the issues of daily life. To live the way the Spirit calls us to live or to live the way our human nature wants us to live. You hit it right when you mentioned pride and arrogence. Sometimes it seems as though we christians think our way is the only way and the better way and only we have the answers and only we know how to live in the light of God. We end up looking down our noses at people who we feel are inferior, who we feel are unacceptable, when we should be loving and accepting. After all we are no different then anyone else. If God didn't love and accept us where we are, how would we know there is another way to live? We forget that we are to be servants. Christ came to serve not be served. To live in community is not easy. There is a great deal of struggle understanding the diversity of the community and that very diversity is God's creation. There will always be a struggle to live in harmony, but the struggle must be filtered with love otherwise we will pull each other apart instead of being one body
MHNY be
would we be?
Appreciate the discussion thus far. I am drawn (a bit uncomfortably I might add) to the imperative to "hate was is evil" for two reasons: 1) the hate crimes and hate literature emerging in our culture (i.e. Chicago suburbs were recently blitzed with it and a recent shooting here) that makes investing energy in hate have such fascination for some people -- I don't want to see the church plug into that same negative negative/evil energy AT ALL, and 2) my discomfort with how some groups of Christians tend to "define" themselves by hating or "taking a stand against" something. It makes me wonder why humans seem to have an easier time generating group cohesiveness by who they are against (i.e. sports rivalries, cold war anti-communism, Sadam Huessin, etc.) Don't we do that even in evangelical Christian circles? What are the consequences? It is probably necessary to some degree for righteousness, but I confess to confusing and discomfort in the light of the rampant negative hate energy all around us. So, how do we listen to this scripture, and hate was is evil, but not give into that overwhelmingly negative energy all around us (and in us) to define ourselves by the hate? Paul certainly goes on to accent the love ethic. I struggle with how well we make that happen. Also, it has occurred to me that if Christians were to invest as much energy into propogating the Fruit of the Spirit that we do into "take a stand against" that the power of God unleashed by that Fruit would destroy the powers of evil in some very surprising ways. A different investment of energy......... JR at Chicago
Appreciate the discussion here. I am drawn (uncomfortably I might add) to the imperative (v.9) "hate was is evil" and how that is in tension with the love ethic that permeates Paul's letters and the rest of this passage. My struggle is for two reasons. 1) The concern that we mix up our "hating" with the emerging hate crime/hate movement in our culture -- all that negative energy. Here in the Chicago suburbs there has been recent blitzing with hate literature and a recent killing. I see that as such negative energy and wonder how this biblical imperative stands in relation to that. Also 2) I feel sadness sometimes when I experience Christian groups and organizations seemingly defining themselves with an emphasis on "taking a stand against". I must be totally naive, but again, I sense that is extremely negative energy for building the kingdom. It is also very much human nature to find it easier to build group cohesivness by what it is we are against -- i.e. sports rivalries, nation enemies, anti-abortion, etc. I experience sadness when I see the church tapping into that aspect of human nature more than doing the harder work of living and embodying the love ethic that Paul also exhorts -- which is also much harder and more demanding. I have pondered, What would happen to the evil in the world if Christians were to invest as much energy into propogating the Fruit of the Spirit as we do into "taking a stand against"? I have to wonder if God's power to destroy evil might not be unleashed in new and more bold ways? I hope. I know there is the call to righteousness and that the wisdom to discern good and evil is necessary. I just confess to the sense the the energy we are investing is more often of negative one, that I believe accomplishes less and is dangerous, than the potentially empowering energy of Love. Any other thoughts on this are welcome (and stories, too.) JR in Chicago
For RS-NY, I think the NRSV translates Romans 12:9 correctly when it says, "let" love be genuine, After a semicolon, it goes on to say "hate what is evil," with the "understood subject" as "you." "[You] hate what is evil..." If you have a Greek NT you can see the eta before the word agape. Thanks for reminding me to check the Greek each week. Revmar
for RS-NY, I think the NRSV correctly translates Romans 12:9 in saying, "Let" love be genuine. After a semicolon, it then goes on to say, "hate what is evil..." with an understood "you" as the subject. "You hate what is evil." If you have a Greek NT, you will see an 'eta' preceding the word, agape. Hope his helps. Revmar
Sorry for the double post, I didn't think the first one went through! Does anyone have any good stories or examples for this passage? I think most people gravitate to the Gospel lesson because Jesus makes story telling a lot easier than does Paul. Though I am a Presbyterian, I am an avid fan of "Lutheran Vesper" speaker Walt Wangerin. Last week he spoke about capital punishment in the light of the NT -- and how we can hate evil without taking a life. Hate groups hate people rather than evil. Revmar
As I read the NRSV the little caption above these verses reads, "Marks of a true Christian." Loving, to me, is the mark of a true Christian. I, too, wonder about the power we give to hatred and fighting the evil one. There appears to be times when we give more power to evil than we do the God of love. My sermon will focus on these qualities of a true Christian and how we are called to love. There are two quotes that I especially like: William Jennings Bryan said, "Truth is in the lives we live, not the words we speak." Unless we live the words, they are not truth. The other is by Mother Teresa. When she was asked how she could love the people she worked with she replied,"I love them one at a time." It is too overwhelming to try and do it all at once, so loving one at a time is manageable.
Rev D in BG
I plan to use this scripture and focus on the true marks of Christianity. Title: "Body Art for Jesus". Thought I would talk about how we struggle to show our Christianity in secular settings and the popularity of tatoos (body art), particularly for Christians. Any good stories to go with this idea?
RevJen
As I get started, I am struggling with the imperative (v.9) "hate was is evil" and how that is in tension with the love ethic that permeates the rest of this passage. My struggle is for two reasons.
1) The concern that we mix up our "hating" with the emerging hate crimes/hate movement in our culture --and all that negative energy. Here in the Chicago suburbs there have been recent blitzings with hate literature and a killing. I see that as evil--generating hate-- and wonder how this biblical imperative to hate stands in relation to that????
2) Sometimes I experience Christian groups and organizations seemingly defining themselves with an emphasis on "taking a stand against". My sense is that is extremely negative energy for building the kingdom. It is also very much human nature (i.e. sports rivalries, national enemies, anti-abortion campaigns, etc.) to build group cohesiveness through defining ourselves in terms of what we are against. I see the church, at times, tapping into that aspect of human nature instead of doing the much harder work of living and embodying the Jesus love ethic that Paul also exhorts in this text. I have pondered, What would happen to the evil in the world if Christians were to invest even as much energy into propogating the Fruit of the Spirit as we do into "taking a stand against"? I have to wonder if God's power to destroy the evil we*hate* might not be unleashed in amazingly new and powerful ways? I hope.
I know there is the concurrent call to righteousness and that the wisdom to discern good and evil is necessary. I just confess to a struggle with how the energy we are investing is more often a negative one, that I believe accomplishes less and is also dangerous, than the potentially empowering energy of Love. Any other thoughts on this?
JR in Chicago
As I read (and re-read) some of the posts, I experienced a jumble of thoughts.
Is hating evil a form of love? We're hearing so much about hate crimes these days, and we are greatly affected by all the attention, including re-dedefining, at least in my view, what hate and love really mean.
In the eyes of some, love means never having to rebuke someone, never having to hold someone accountable, never having to offend. Weren't there times that Jesus behaved in just such ways? Why can't we see this as a loving act, rather than a 'hateful' one? I am of course speaking about sin, what sin is, and how it defines our need for a Savior.
Overcoming evil with good, is a lttle tough to accomplish in a world where evil and good are now defined by the individual, rather than an objective standard. Today, hate can be defined so broadly, so subjectively, that real hate gets diminished.
Verse 17 tells us to not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. What is noble in the sight of all today? What is evil? It's getting harder to find consensus on these things, why is that?
Can it have anything to do with our reluctance to submit to the authority of the Word of God? Or is it more than that?
Rick in Va
I can't help thinking that a few hours watching the movie "Ghandi" would be well spent in preparing to preach from this passage.
John near Pitts.
I don't see any problem between hating what is evil and then overcoming it by transforming evil (enemies) into good (friends). Isn't this the power of the cross?
For me the problem with hate groups isn't, should I hate them or not. What is a harder question for me is: how can I be an instrument of transformation? Certainly I can't help to bring this about if I engage in the same tactics and purposes that these hate groups utilize.
Anyone see the movie, I think it was American Gothic or something like that? It's about a former "skinhead" who ends up in prison and slowly comes to see the wrong of his previous life. Pretty violent though.
John near Pitts.
just checking
in my hebrew class this year, my professor was discussing the word hate...not as we define hate..but much differently. One of the Psalmists writes, "I hated you perfectly" (I forget which psalm...sorry) But hate in this context was not human hate where you actively despise someone or something in your heart. but more passive hate ...where you refuse to give one oune of your attention, your time , your body , mind spirit to this thing or person which may be evil in God's sight. And it is only with God's help that we can learn to hate perfectly...aeb pa
When I first read this I could hear myself & others say, :Sure Paul easy behavior to have! No one can live that way. We are human & humans mess up & sin." While I was looking at this passage at other sites - it was mentioned how Paul himself struggled to live this way & that he experienced both sides. Being the hater & the hated. It wasn't easy for him but it was what he strive for. He didn't give up. And than too I saw a billboard from a Church that described all the Jesus went through, betrayed, rejected, spat upon, whipped, nailed to the cross, speared in the side etc.. than on the bottom it read: And you think you have had a bad day!
How often do we forget the humanness of Jesus & forget he suffered like we do - but even more so. And yet he loved to the point of death. "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
We learn how to strive to live according to the teachings & the commandments of Christ. And learn from Paul that no it is not easy but as Christians it is what we are call - a true Christian. Just some thoughts that are very incomplete. mzinWV
My apologies for my lengthy triple post.......nothing I had written "showed up" on my view of this web page for many hours. Must learn to be more patient. JR in Chicago
mzinWV,
What other lectionary oriented sites have you found?
jalogan@telerama.com
The image that comes to mind when we are in a discussion of hate, goodness and evil comes from M. L'Engle's children's book, "A Wrinkle in Time". In the end it is love that dares the risks of love that breaks evil's spell. I have always like that image becaue to walk the Way is not easy nor is it safe. For the heroine of the novel it is a "to the death" struggle to save her family by focusing all the love she has for her father and her brother. Good does not triumph...LOVE does. Alway. JOM
Aaaaaaaggghhhh!!!!!!!! A large chunk of your terrific contibutions, that were here on this site yesterday and all I thought I had to do was read again the bits I liked - has GONE today!! How come? I'm new to this site - can that happen often? (Scottish) John in Australia
jalogan http://www.deaconsil.com/index.html is the best i think. It is not a free site. but He has done a lot of home work each week with the different Scipture text. Alot of it are sermons but he does give commentaries & study helps from others. mzinWV
Revmar, another story that comes to mind is from THE LAST BATTLE, the last of C.S.Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, when at the end of time a Calormene (people who have served the evil god Tash) is surprised to find himself in Aslan's country, for all during his life he has loved and done good in the name of the evil god. The Christ figure Aslan tells him that all love and goodness, no matter in whose name it is done is of God, and all evil no matter in whose name IT is done is of the evil god Tash. That may say something about Christians who use hatemongering and spit venom at people whom they do not feel meet their standards.
Joseph Fitzmyer in his Anchor Commentary on Romans for the verse 9b notes: Cf. T. Benj. 8:1 (I don't know what that is, but it makes a good point) "Do away with evil, envy, and hatred of brothers, and cling to goodness and love." Mary in NY
I really love this scripture, why is it so hard for people to follow it's direction? I plan to use the first part of this text 9-13 for my sermon. First of all there just seems to be too much good material to talk about in the 15-20 minutes I have for a sermon in the service. Secondly it looks like Paul is talking mainly to the church in these verses.
I believe if the church could live by these simple suggestions we all would be blessed beyond measure. The love would be like a magnet drawing more to Christ than we would know what to do with. I'm going to call my sermon "Theres no place like Home." Someone told me the other day that the church was like their second home. I tend to agree when people feel the love that Paul describes in our text the church is like home. It's a beacon on a hill.
Thanks everyone for your contributions. I would love to hear all our sermons. Many Blessings! Kris
PS What happened to my last post for this date? hmmm?
From the DPS administration:
please accept our apology for the possible loss of postings on various DPS sites. This is due to the move of all of our domains to a new host server and has nothing to do with the content of anybody's postings.
John in Australia,
I'm in there with you buddy. I posted the direction of my sermon wanting to see where people would go with it. Today its not there. HELP!
I don't see "Hate what is evil" as being particularly central to this text. I am much more intrigued by "Rejoice in Hope." I think that my words can have an effect here because most people decide what is evil and go about the business of hating it. My words are simply not going to have an effect there.
On the other side if we start looking at how the world has been changed by people who rejoice in hope the sermon could go on for days.
Ran in DFW
PS. Why did so many contributions disappear?
Tension which exists between "outsiders"./poor/ newcomers and the ouldtimers/ regulars is real in many congreations. it is the kind of attutude which I've seen break the spirit of the most devoted pastor and other leaders.
I note the text: 12:10 Love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. 12:11 Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. 12:10 Love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. 12:11 Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer.
We are in a small urban area in a congregation of 106 yrs old. We faced the problem with patience and determination to show true hospitality. Some people complained that the new folk did not show proper church manners. Some persons complained that some newer/poorer folk were wearing shorts, t shirts, torn pants to service. Jane, a newer woman was observed week after week being be very fidgity, getting up, sitting down, then running out and returning. The only ones who seemed to notice Jane, and spoke to me about her were some who felt she was a disruption,needed to be more devoted, and asked me to say something to her about proper courtesy. I did not.
One day she called and said that her grandfather had died in another state. He had raised her since her parents were in the Army and when she was young sent her home" in a box" to the grandparents. She tried to think of who to share this news with. "I knew that the people in the congregation cared for me and treated me like family, so i wanted to call and tell this. You are some of the most important people in my life now".
Jane went on and said" You probably have noticed that I move around alot in the service, and sometimes even get up and leave." (I admitted that i had been aware of it) She went on and said "I have seizures, but i can't afford to buy all the medicine to control them, so i try to make it last. Before i come to service i take just enough tomake it through. I love being in the service to praise God. I can feel the seizure coming on and try to stay in my pew and wait as long as possible. whe i can take it no longer, I get up and run home where i take the rest of the meds...then lie down for a minute before i run back since i don't want to miss a prayer, song or the sermon. I want to be there so much" Jane stayed with us for a while before she moved to another city. I've often thought of her high degree of devotion (which was judged by oldtimers as uncaring and discourteous). I have been touched by her eagerness and passion for God and a time to praise and pray. I'm remined on another newer woman who said to me : "I've been waiting for a whole week to come back and worship. when i got back home last week I gave thanks to God, and then greeted each morning with the words" I have only 5 more days (4 more, 3 more, etc) before i can go to Riverside Church and praise the Lord" I wonder what would happen to us if more of our people would antcipate worship like that. Too often it must seem to be routine and a duty expected. I also fear if left up to the intolorent "satisfied" oldtimers, many new people, poor people would be "spoken to", "advised" as to the proper ways..... and be discouraged from coming to fit in.
note that when we are speaking about love and hate....they are not at the opposite ends of the spectrum....... at one end is apathy.... not caring... lack of passion. I believe we are called to love and hate in this life....... wouldn't I be correct to assume that we all hate injustice,exploitation and exclusion of persons.
pastordon, elmira,ny
To pastordon, elmira,ny
Thank you.
John near Pitts.
Guess not. -Paul of SC
to MH in NY,
the problem with push/me pull me is that he had two heads. thus the conflict. obviously christ is the head of the church and your congregation but sometimes iv found reinforcing "the Primary Purpose" helps to unify. why do we go to church? why do we sing hymns? why do we give our hard earned money? why do we sit and listen to preaching? why do we act respectfull in church and why do we tolerate those that are not nearly as respectfull. why do we reach out?
their may be lots of answers but there can only be one primary purpose if we want to avoid the two headed lama.
to Glorify God. plain and simple. to God be the glory.
jesus is seen and lifted up.
thats what God put us here for and there in lies the age old question to the meaning of life.
bless you and your ministry brother
Troy In Texas